Disadvantages of degree apprenticeships? Why do the majority of DC choose uni over degree apprenticeships?

[hmmm12]

Tell me about the disadvantages of degree apprenticeships please.
Would your dc consider doing a degree apprenticeship? And if not why not?

Although they’re referred to as degree apprenticeships, some of the accountancy apprenticeships don’t technically do a degree, but gain professional qualifications, so they are not paired with a uni as such. I believe the chartered accountancy qualification is equivalent to a masters though.

The course looks great, I know people who tried and failed to get on it.
I was more thinking about if you wanted to work somewhere other than Dyson.

We looked at DAs for middle DS.
Hard to find where advertised. They seem to get announced in bursts.
Incredibly super competitive to get when you do find one.
The successful applicant needs to strongly sell themselves and be ready to be very professional. Write a great CV, interview well, dress super smart, get amazing references, come across as terrific and outgoing at every contact. DAs probably work perfectly for very skilled kids with heaps of confidence ready to enter world of work.

midDS does not have that kind of "go getter" personality (neither do I).
It might be a good path for youngestDS.

@lljkk that's another issue - just finding the openings! There is no central point. There is a section on the .gov site, some are advertised on general employment sites, some are on UCAS (which is weird because you don't apply to the uni, but the company), and probably elsewhere too. And they all run to their own timetables. How a 17 yo is supposed to manage several different applications whilst in the midst of A levels I'm not sure.
The whole system should be easier to access, with a more open process.

Possibly because those going to uni didn't need practice interviews?

Not available for the subject or qualifications they want to study. It's a degree or nowt.

@Piggywaspushed it was for the whole sixth form, to prepare them for interviews generally (uni admission interviews included), we tailored the interview depending on their prospective path (uni or employment). I didn't interview them all obviously, but they weren't divided by uni or work, I was surprised how many of mine leaned away from uni, not sure if I just got a batch weighted that way mind by coincidence, but nearly all of them brought up uni debt in some way when discussing why they were pursuing that route, it's clearly something that weighs on their minds much more than it did in my sixth form years (plan 1, not from a wealthy background).

DD had to do just one extra module on top of her chartered qualifications to get her Masters (from Oxford Brookes).

I see.

It certainly doesn't reflect the (large) sixth form I work in where well over 80% go to uni.

@EarthlyNightshade Do you not think that DC flock to Dyson because it’s a household name with a noisy owner? Also @Piggywaspushed, Marketing is hardly a great advertisement for an engineering degree. Their head office is in Singapore. Sadly star struck 17 year olds don’t always make the right decisions. Dyson degrees are limited to their needs in engineering. They don’t train civil or structural engineers for example.

DC might want apprenticeships but they are not easy to get. There really aren’t arts apprenticeships @LuluBlakey1 so what were they supposed to do? Clearly surveying was out and finance not an obvious career either. Lots of apprenticeships are simply not geared to arts students. The big message is arts should not be degrees and need culling. My DD did one and encountered similar issues. However what apprenticeship could she have applied for? Nothing we could find. Your friend’s DC probably had similar issues.

Strategy and marketing. It was the apprenticeship she signed up for. She spends a good deal of time working abroad, yes, and earns a lot of money. I don't know if her degree is in engineering. It is one of the absolute elite degree apprenticeships and extremely hard to get on to (harder, statistically than getting a place at Oxbridge). She is an amazing young woman in a very male dominated field so I'm not sure why the aspersions and labelling her a 'star struck 17 year old' is frankly demeaning. She's 27.

I'm sure there are apprenticeships in civil and structural engineering with major firms. I'd imagine aspirants do research this.

In fact, obviously I am not going to out ehr but she is a case study on the Dyson website from their first cohort. She has a BEng and they are awarded by Warwick.

The website suggests they now do MEngs.
Her job title according to LinkedIn is strategy analyst. I may have got the marketing bit a bit wrong.

It looks like she helped to develop the hairwrap for those of you who like your products!

No- they never even considered them. Their independent school just pushed them into university courses but I understand what you are saying. However, I don't agree that Arts courses should be culled from Universities wholesale.

I think many courses should(Arts and Science)- there are far too many sport and leisure/sport science courses for example. They lead to poor quality jobs on the whole and many who take them end up working in roles where they simply don't need a degree. Marketing too. Criminology and Forensic Science, Study of a degree related to a particular country eg American studies (with a year abroad), Social care, Guidance and Counselling (inc one year of study abroad in your chosen specialist field), Tourism, Sports Management.

I could go on but it seems to me that whereas a Uni used to have one or two courses in a subject eg Marketing, they now have 6-8 (or more) which are basically oddly specialist routes and pointless. They con young people into thinking there are well-paid jobs at the end and there are fewer and fewer of those.

The business of Higher Education is now more important that the quality or appropriateness. Higher Education needs a huge overhaul and prune. The quality is much lower-content and what it turns out as graduates- than it used to be. Much of it is simply unnecessary and a waste of money.

@LuluBlakey1 I agree. MN posters always have high flying DC who will do well after all the degrees you mention but many do not.

I don’t think all arts degrees should be degrees though. I agree some should. As a country we punched above our weight in arts related careers when few had degrees. Many went from school and trained on the job for their arts jobs, other than fine art. There were not dance degrees, or similar. Having said that, the poorly paid don’t pay 1p for their degrees. They have done what they wanted to do but did they actually need an art degree? What use has it been? The “benefits” are employment of lecturers but it gives the UK more debt in unpaid student loans. The IFS actually researched that arts students are a negative after their degree. In other words, the student would earn more without the degree. So less expensive training is an imperative.

Looks better on the cv at times and it can be a mix as to how the apprenticeship is

@Piggywaspushed So a BEng but she’s not doing engineering. So what was the point in doing an engineering degree? Of course they all know Dyson! Who wouldn’t? Marketing is not a male dominated profession. You’ve been watching too much Mad Men! You could easily do such a job with a Management Degree from Bath. The Brexit supporting Dyson who is based in Singapore isn’t my idea of a great British employer. Just time that makes a lot of noise.

A first class degree in engineering from Warwick. Honestly , what do you want? Degree ,not degree? Apprenticeship, or only if it comes with the 'correct' type of engineering? You Just pick pick pick. I corrected myself and said it was strategy. Developing new products to diversify Dyson's line. That's product design engineering.

I don't know what the Brexit stuff is about. People can work for whomever. It's not my career.

Your issues with anything I post are tedious and clear to all.

Never watched Mad Men in my life.

I think people with degrees and with comfortable incomes forget how big the barriers for many students going onto standard degrees are. But the barriers to getting degree apprenticeships are extremely high too. So for here groups with high barriers, what remains apart from entry-level jobs? These can have good career prospects, but many don’t.

Many families are terrified about university. If they have no history of it and little knowledge of the processes for choosing a subject and applying and what comes next in applying for grad jobs, the prospect of £60k debt for something so unknown, is a massive barrier. I know families with no history of HE who have done pretty well in the workplace and earn decent money, but have zero genuine interest in academic study, culture or uni and for whom HE is a mystery, despite information from school or college. Their kids don’t have a love of a particular subject or desire to continue studying really. They view uni and degrees with suspicion and as being something for ‘swots’ or ‘poshos’ but they think about it and apply because the doesn’t seem to be another route. They don’t know about ‘good’ unis or valuable degrees or those which might be a waste of time. Some will reluctantly go to lower performing institutions and not have any commitment to their subject and never really engage with degree level study, and then go into entry level jobs. Others will decide not to go and go into entry level jobs, some of which will then offer further training g and allow them to progress to decent careers. But traditional uni courses have little appeal.

Many of these families decide degree apprenticeships might be better than a standard degree for their kid. The idea appeals due to lack of debt and a clear career path and vocational element. But again, they don’t know much about them. The fact that degree apprenticeships are extremely limited in number and also that the people who beat off the competition to get the places aren’t their children who vaguely decide to go for it and apply mid-way through yr13, isn’t something they are aware of until much later. They don’t realise that those who get the places have top academic credentials, and are often exactly the same people who can or do get offers from top universities, and those who’ve had a plan for years and been building their CVs with valuable experience to make them stand out. They don’t realise that often these kids have highly motivated parents behind them who have researched degree apprenticeships and supported their kids in gaining useful experience and writing their applications.
So often these families have a lack of knowledge about this system too. They leave their kids to look into it and apply and as the months pass, idly wonder why the applications haven’t progressed. And as the end of A Levels or Bteachs approaches, these kids have no degree apprenticeship place, possibly no degree place or a degree offer for something they aren’t interested in, possibly at a uni they have never visited or really planned to go to, and a choice to take on £60k of debt for this stuff they aren’t bothered or committed to….or simply not bother and carry on working in the pub or supermarket they have a weekend job at, and see how things pan out.

Quite simply, there aren’t good and available options for the middling kids and knowledge and information failure is a massive barrier. So many middling kids with lowish GCSE pass grades are doing A Levels and Btechs, with no clear route of what to do next. Uni doesn’t quite suit lots of them and degree apprenticeships aren’t in reach for most of them. Some will later find their way in trades and via work training schemes that let them progress, but lots also find themselves in zero hour jobs or a series of disappointing short term jobs without many prospects. And this is a large proportion of the population.

It seems increasingly you need family behind you - family with knowledge about HE systems and careers and internships and works experience and application processes and timescales. Sharp elbowed families push their kids forward and the other families later hear about something another child applied for or has got, that they weren’t even aware of, nor that the timescale has passed for going for that.

Society feels like it’s polarising more and more. Levelling up, widening access etc - much of this stuff seems to target the middle class kids who are already in good state schools with educated middle class parents who can already access the system. The system remains a mystery to other people who seem increasingly excluded.

"It seems increasingly you need family behind you"

But this was always the case. Nothing new. It's not about sharp elbows - that language is unhelpful - it's about having your ear to the ground and being resourceful. Resourceful parents use their resources to help their children and often their kids inherit their resourcefulness and carve their own path.

The solution, for the others, is better careers advice at secondary school, aimed at parents as well as students. If all school careers advisors were sufficiently resourced and resourceful, there would be more equality. The advisor at my children's school seems to be several years behind the curve, and not particularly pro-active in sharing information. She also only works 1 day a week, which isn't enough.

Schools have no resources for careers education.

Kids with resourceful or educated or ‘in-the-know’ parents can access the best degrees and degree-apprenticeships.

In the past, there was plenty of work for those who weren’t academic and whose parents didn’t have this knowledge or drive, so it didn’t matter so much. The majority left school young and went into employment which gave them enough to rent or purchase their own house.

School budgets have been cut to the bone and things like careers education barely exists now. The level of research and preparation needed to successfully get onto a highly competitive degree apprenticeship means it’s inaccessible to most.

Yes, there’s always been inequality. Since the 50s/60s, society was on an upwards trajectory to raise living standards and boost opportunities. It was the norm for ones’ kids to have better opportunities than those their parents had. But the reverse is now the case. Society is polarising more and more into haves and have-nots.

What are the young people who don’t go off to do degrees or degree-apprenticeships, and who previously might have gone into work at 16 and worked their way up in decent jobs that had some kind of pathway meant to do? They are in education until 18 and have qualifications which seem to suggest higher education, but it’s not right for so many or the costs and other barriers are so high as to make it not genuinely accessible. And yet the jobs that used to be there for them don’t exist in the same way now. Is it all call-centres, shop work and zero hour contracts?

@WombatChocolate I have pushed this for yonks on here! I didn’t go to uni. I did 7 years part time study with my employer. Starting at a humble ONC. The less academic should be steered towards a HNC not a degree. I did my HNC at a Poly. The course met the needs of my employer . It’s similar to a lower level apprenticeship. It makes financial sense for pupils too.

The whole issue is caused by too many degrees and insufficient part time courses backed up by employment. I found my own employment. No careers help at all and I’m ancient.

DC need to access middle level apprenticeships and the middle DC are perfectly capable of working and doing this level of course. Lots of degrees need to revert to part time HNC or full time HND (apologise for old terminology) and we need to get away from lauding Dyson who only take high flyers who would have been successful whatever they had done.

We have a lack of understanding when it comes to a CDC grade type of student. All the anecdotes are about highly ambitious and qualified DC. No one looks out for the less qualified. Back in the day that was me and I know work and study can be great if exceptionally hard work. There clearly needs to be apprenticeships in one advertising place. There needs to be realistic expectations from employers and pupils need to be steered to below degree level if appropriate. Brining back Dyson high flyers into school is like brining in the Premier football team. Great if you can get it but mostly people end up playing in the park! Many DC just need to aim for the local non league/Div 2 in football terms. Early advice is crucial and a better system for applications.

I am not sure it is wholly accurate to characterise those successful in securing degree/degree-level apprenticeships as exclusively top grade students, having bags of confidence and focused on one goal for several years.

They are likely to have matured early relative to their cohort; it is that they have gravitas rather than 'projected confidence'; their maturity also means they pass situational judgement and other non-academic filters more easily.

Most of my DCs' apprenticeship colleagues have had paid employment whilst at school or college; nothing unusual or special but typically held positions for some time; this meant they were able to offer concrete evidence they are ready for the world of work and be able to balance work and study.

I suspect that most successful applicants feel they derived a lot of value from their paid, part time employment and so the idea of 'working with study in support' rather than 'study, graduate and then work' strongly appeals. For successful applicants, I would say a key motivation is the preferred style of learning and how that supports work, rather than the seeking of a 'paid for' degree.

The only way we would know about their A level grades would be if data was recorded but I imagine it’s not. We also don’t know if degree apprentices had jobs whilst at school or not. I actually doubt that is truly widespread but we don’t know. Certainly relevant jobs for, say, engineering, would be difficult to acquire. Working at a supermarket and then doing marketing might be. Less high flying young people can get the non degree apprenticeships but I think the degree apprentices are getting a lot of help just to navigate the system. Or they have parents that know about opportunities and advise.