Disadvantages of degree apprenticeships? Why do the majority of DC choose uni over degree apprenticeships?

[hmmm12]

Tell me about the disadvantages of degree apprenticeships please.
Would your dc consider doing a degree apprenticeship? And if not why not?

Nail on the head. The number of degree apprenticeships is a tiny fraction of the number of university places. The only silver lining is that the numbers are growing. It's the inevitable result of Blair's insane plan to get 50% of school/college leavers going to University!

When my son was exploring options, there were very limited local options, (i.e. within travelling distance from home). We're out in the regions, in a run down area with virtually no industry. The only big firm doing apprenticeships in his chosen field was 75 miles away - doesn't sound too bad, but it was a 2.5 hour train ride because of the crap railway network around here, and the train times meant it was impossible for him to actually get to work in time, because the first train of the day wasn't early enough. No student loans available for him to rent a flat closer.

Local firms "may" have been offering the odd apprenticeship scheme, but there was no central register/database of those who did, and all the local firms were tiny micro businesses, we had no regional/national/international firms around here at all, with it being a run down area and all decent sized firms had moved out and centralised in London years ago!

He decided on university instead. All worked out well, got a First and now working in one of the UK's biggest firms at the opposite side of the country - at least with him being on a good graduate wage, he can afford to rent a flat there. They do apprenticeships, but he'd never have been able to afford a flat on apprenticeship wages and says all the apprentices are locals living at home. So he got where he wanted in the end, but had to be via University because of the student loans to cover living costs (which were a lot cheaper in uni halls than renting his own flat!).

We need to get the "levelling up" agenda back on track so people have more options to study/train closer to home so they have more options. At the same time, really ramp up apprenticeships, both in terms of quantity and quality. Finally, open up apprenticeships to student loans, student accommodation, etc., to make it easier for people to move and work/train elsewhere closer to the jobs rather than being stuck at home in economic backwaters.

It seems that many who are attracted to degree apprenticeships are those for whom the debt of doing a degree is a big issue and barrier. Sometimes this is families with no history in HE. Sometimes it is students who don’t love academic study and want to be out of formal education.

With the degree apprencticeships being in short supply and so competitive, actually it’s often those who get the t very top uni offers who also get the competitive degree apprenticeship offers too. The solid but not brilliant students do t get them, because there are just too many excellent teenage applicants or people already working in the companies.

People often think of them as a great opportunity for the less academic….but it’s extremely hard for them to get onto them unless they are massive self-starters with huge amounts of personality and drive…..or possibly a very driven parent working behind the scenes on their applications.

As other say, for uni you fill in UCAS and wait for offers to roll in. Easy!
For degree apprenticeships you need to put hours of research in and hours in applying and getting through the stages. Most 17 year olds just haven’t got the drive and ability to go through the process and out compete the many others applying. Those getting the roles have often had work experience or been involved in projects. They have been gearing up to it for several years and building experience for their application.

Many with moderate GCSEs who find A Levels hard and don’t fancy academic study at uni or want the debt (or their families are put off by debt) only really start thinking about it towards the end of yr12 once uni rears it’s head. When they come to look into it, many have not gained any wider experience or do t have anything to mark them out from the many other candidates. Many applications are weak because often there is a lack of knowledgeable support from school or college or parents for applying. The students and their families don’t grasp how competitive it is or the hours needed to apply.

So after A Levels, without a degree apprenticeship, some go for a degree (that hey applied for alongside apprenticeships) or through Clearing, or take an entry level job. Some plan to re-apply for apprenticeships and either do or don’t. The vast majority who have a thought about degree apprenticeships will never end up on one. What has often been thought of as a vocational route for the less academic and better than uni for them, just isn’t available in the quantities required and those with top academics often seize the places.

One of DDs friends got a degree apprenticeship but he just couldnt cope with it and dropped out. Academically he was fine but he was too immature really and if he had just been at Uni he would have had more support. The organisation tried to help but he was living with much older people and not on a campus so no real "Uni" experience or support network.
His older brother did one and was fine so it depends on the individual.
There is the workload as well to bear in mind

One of mine did an apprenticeship after A levels. Tried to find degree level but eventually found a 2 year higher level one in data analytics. He is now on £42k at 21 with no debt, fully remote working. Seems happy enough and prospects look good.
It was very very competitive. Took 8 months to find something.
I think it’s a shame he didn’t get to experience student life but he says he would have hated it. He is doing much better financially than my others who went to uni.

Totally agree on location being a major factor. The pay isn’t really enough to live out. If we hadn’t been in London it may not have been possible for my son.

@Peasnbeans Couple of options here. Know a young man who turned down his firmed university offer (having got the grades) to follow this route. https://jet2careers.com/emerging-talent-careers/apprenticeships/

As usual, @WombatChocolate, a very good summary (you have a knack for these!). I have two who have gone down different L7 accountancy pathways and would say parental input with regards to application processes is (thankfully) constrained by the format of selection tests etc.

In our case, parental input did play a part but only indirectly. Firstly, encouraging an early focus on securing paid work whilst at school; this was to give a taste for financial independence and experience of being accountable in an environment not centred around them. Secondly, by encouraging them to research uni and non-uni routes thoroughly so they properly understood what was at stake.

All this meant they developed an early appetite to drive the process forward themselves and, at point of recruitment, could genuinely articulate why they would be worth the risk of hiring.

Mine had looked into them and applied /got quite far in interview process for some but he’s changed his mind now.

concern is he doesn’t like the job/study area and he’s tied into it. On a degree he can change course
not the full student fun experience. He had a lifetime of work ahead no need to get into it too early
some of the ones we looked at with him had set holidays and eg allowed no time off in summer

For those thinking about degree apprenticeships, you need to look at the individual company’s websites. Also, don’t just assume that the companies only provide apprenticeships in their core business. For example, an accountancy firm may also offer computer ones, and I believe BA offer HR apprenticeships.

Also, look at the apprenticeship schemes in detail. For example, accountancy isn’t just auditing/book-keeping, but there are areas which are more business consulting etc. if your dc wants to do something business, for example, then look at these companies and check they offer.

Also, my son did live away from home. At the age of 24, he’s now a qualified chartered accountant, has a flat, no debt and earning a reasonable wage.

Not all 'traditional' university courses are three hours of lecture a week and then all the rest of the time you're in the pub. Nursing and education require placements and you have to steady around them.
I'm on a placement based postgrad and it's paid for. It's tough. I'm not getting the same marks as I did in my undergrad. I'm coasting really. But does it matter when you're guaranteed a job at the end. Does any employer care what grade you got?

Also something to keep in mind is that while the number of degree apprenticeships for school leavers is tiny, a more realistic route is to do a lower level apprenticeship and work up. My DD is a chartered accountant now in her mid-20s. She started on a Level 2/3 app, and when she finished they moved her up to a Level 4, and then 5. She’s now doing the higher, which I think is level 7 and will get her a Masters in Accounting.

Worked with two apprentices in the job I’ve just left. IT for a well known retailer. Both had worked on the shop floor and the apprenticeship was a way of moving up into a back office career role. One had a year in a computer studies degree and had decided a full time degree wasn’t for him.

I think that apprenticeships which are an “alternative” to full time study are rare. They’re as likely to be ways for school leavers to upskill themselves. Especially if the applicants already have experience in the business itself.

Degree apprenticeships are in limited supply- tiny number compared to degrees

This. They are few and far between. Anyone who secures a place on a degree apprenticeship is an exception not the rule.

@Menomeno, you make a very good point. Accountants, to their credit, kept nurturing non-grad entry routes (whilst other professions fully embraced 'graduatisation') and have also ensured the different exam structures interlock, allowing progression in different ways.

@Treesdostandtall, I also agree with your observation; in a similar vein, my DC were given early supervisory and in-store financial responsibilities by national retailers that accelerated their desire to get on in a practical way rather than detour (as they saw it) via a largely academic experience. They owe a debt of gratitude to the store managers who believed in them.

Law, accountancy, local govt

I work in an Accountancy practice (I'm not on accountant) all out trainees are on apprenticeships some are degree level apprenticeships but none of them were taken on as degree level apprentices. They all started on level 2 or 3 apprenticeships. We have never hired anyone with a traditional degree in accountancy.

My son is currently doing a level 2 apprenticeship (different sector) which he started straight after GCSEs and depending on his performance/choice/business needs there is the option to then move onto higher level apprenticeships.

Everything that @WombatChocolate said is spot on and perfectly summarised.

I came through the practical apprenticeship route many many years ago, and of the 154 of us on it, we all came from surrounding immediate counties.

This year we had 180 degree apprentice spots available and the numbers I've heard applied (hearsay through the apprentices) was in excess of 18k. The ones that got them have moved from all over the country to take up a spot.

having the best results doesn't even always get you through the door of the interview process, nearly all of those applied would have had them. it's all about the projects you've been involved with, work experience completed, what shows us that you actually want a career in this and what have you done to further that. Just having good results isn't enough unfortunately.

There is a doctor degree apprenticeship.

Not all apprenticeships are degree apprenticeships. Some posters seem to be conflating the two.

The "ordinary" apprenticeship route is still open to those who get pipped by the over achievers chasing degree apprenticeships.

None of our apprentices are on degree apprenticeships, but it's still a good and respectable way to launch their careers (unless you have a parent who's snobby about RG degrees, I suppose).

I'm not persuaded by the argument that today's 17 and 18 year olds are too immature to enter the world of work without going to university.

The vast majority of people used to enter the workforce by 18 at the latest. What's changed that today's young people couldn't possibly cope and need to take on £50k of debt to "mature" ready for their first job?

Our graduates have as big an adjustment to being in the workplace as our school leavers. If the argument is that the graduates are buying maturity and workplace preparation I think they should get a refund.

I think that’s flipping amazing! You must be really proud.

your son will be flying! I cant imagine being on 23k at 18/19. Well done him

@dreamfield Many are not immature but heaps don’t know what career they want. I think lower apprenticeships do work for those with lower grade A levels or those with BTecs who have looked at careers early. For others, they need to wait until uni. The huge advantage of this is doing work or work experience to add to the degree. It’s best for these dc to wait and consider lots of options that they might not have thought of originally, It’s not that they are immature, it’s that they need to look at options and work up their cv.

I notice a poster said successful applicants had relevant work experience. For 6th formers this is very difficult to get so degree apprenticeships go to older candidates. The 18 year olds probably need to aim lower but then the degree is even further away. How many years would be needed to compete with degree holders?

As for wfh for a 21 year old! Just not what most young people want. Money isn’t everything.

There's lots of options out there for students these days who want to get hands on experience whilst doing a traditional degree- e.g. degrees with a year in industry or degrees with an integrated work placement. You're also looking at a potentially six year commitment, vs 3 or 4. Don't forget the long uni holidays can provide excellent opportunities to do internships or similar.

Often, also, degree apprenticeships are only available in limited places or very limited numbers. Not every student wants to go a long way from home, and financially although you are being paid, it can still be tricky. On a starting salary of £20,000, if you've got no other financial support, it can be hard to find a place to live, run a car etc in the areas where degree apprenticeships are most common. Yes, you're avoiding student debt, but you may well still need the bank of mum and dad to help out a bit.

I do think degree apprenticeships can be great, but equally when apprentices finish them, they can end up in the same situation as e.g. any other engineering grad.

There's a pilot scheme starting from this September, that's not really the same thing.

I would never want to be a student in the first cohort of a brand new program, there's so much potential for things to go wrong.

As people have said there are not many of them so that is one factor. In my profession (law) there three different things (traditional route - LLB (or a different degree and law after) , then post grad, then 2 year training so from age 18 about 6 - 7 years to be qualified as solicitor (barrister is different); second route is degree apprenticeship; and third is apprenticeship starting aged 18. https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/career-advice/becoming-a-solicitor/qualifying-without-a-degree/apprenticeships

If you go back 100 years + it was the norm for solicitors to be articled to a solicitor and spend 6 or 7 years on the job working whilst also doing exams. My grandfather's brother did that in the 1890s whilst also doing an external LLB from London University and even back to the 1600s in England you would get loads of young teenagers starting work with an expert in a trade or profession and working their way up either with or without exams.

My own view is that currently you may be better just going to university as at 18 not everyone knows what they want to do. However those who can get the very few good apprenticeships out there who want them then go for it.

At university you can also perhaps make more friends of people your own age doing all kinds of subjects who may be friends for life - that might give you people to share flats with in first jobs and also just to have a reasonably relaxed time away from home for a few years - a mind of Amish type rumpspringa almost..... I got as much about the things that weren't law I did at university as those that were and leaving home, being with other people etc was just as much part of the learning as the degree.

That's your choice but with that attitude nothing would develop.
https://educationhub.blog.gov.uk/2024/02/05/nhs-doctor-apprenticeships-everything-you-need-to-know/
Doctor Apprenticeships