BBC 2 9pm tonight Is University Really Worth it?

[Aslockton]

1 hour long programme tonight looking at the higher education sector. Might be worth a watch if you have young people thinking about university or other pathways.

I do think many young people would benefit from going a little bit later.

I agree.

I still lurk on WIWIKAU, and there have been a shocking number of students struggling or dropping out this year, many simply not being ready to go to university.

DD took a gap year because her application for medicine was unsuccessful and she didn't want to accept the course that she had been offered, so she worked, volunteered and travelled, and was much more confident about striking out on her own as a result, and had time to really consider what she wanted to do.

@Newgirls I also felt sad for the medical student. I wonder if her parents were against the idea of her going away to university. I want to send her a food parcel.

Again (and I'm not being difficult for the sake of it) any job for any YP is only feasible if they can get to one.

The public transport where I live is beyond unbelievably shit.

Me too. I feel sure the tv crew will have helped her. Who knows what the family wanted. With medicine you don’t always get to choose where you study and she went for it. They should be proud and supporting her. Shame on them

I did too but wasn't sure what Geoff's point was ?

I don’t doubt it. Sounds like an 18 year old in that position would need to leave home and many do

Perhaps he was showing us how expensive it is. Didn’t someone then say fees for trainee doctors/nurses should be cut entirely? So it fed into that idea?

That isn't what I was saying. I was saying those who stand to gain the most from university are debt averse so are put off university but they also can't afford gap years and - once they leave school- they lose the connections of school to help them apply. So, they don't go to university which, statistical analysis suggests, affects their long term future earning potential.

Thank you for explaining. All is now clear.

@RampantIvy how did Sheffield come out? I live there!

I'm not sure if you mean @boys3 but she would definitley have some data!

Very positively. Sheffield university own AMRC and have excellent industrial links. It brings a lot of investment into Sheffield.

The outgoing chancellor of Hallam was interviewed, and I thought he came across well.

Sheffield hallum are certainly facing some challenges. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-68516324.amp

Very anti intellectual especially when he went to uni himself.

If he’s right of the current Conservatives then that is quite far to the right. He’s anti welfare state and a libertarian.

It’s great to have careers open to graduates and non graduates, for apprenticeships and other career routes to be widely available. However, I want a programme like that presented by a proper journalist and/or educators not someone like him.

There are ways to be intellectual without incurring 30-60k debt (plus the 7.6% interest). Arguably more so when older rather than following the straight from school path. I think it’s healthy to question the whole idea. I think for many uni is more like a growing up/finishing school and that isn’t necessarily a bad thing - but certainly worth thinking about more thoroughly

As someone from a middle class, highly literate home I could have expanded my intellectual horizons without going to university.

But I suspect it's not kids from professional homes that will find the financial barriers to study off-putting. It's the kids from working class homes who the government is desperate to push into trades, while their own children are still able to access the rewards of an arts education.

A university education can be personally transformative for kids from the poorest homes. Less so for middle class kids.

A university education can be personally transformative for kids from the poorest homes. Less so for middle class kids.

Any evidence to back up the second half of that claim @izimbra? I was/am middle class and University was personally transformative for me... And how are you measuring 'transformation' anyway?

It is certainly something of which Labour is very proud that it got so many more into university, not least due to the loan system which may not be popular with everyone but it does give a full loan and maintenance loan to those whose parents do not earn much and there are many more places than whe I went to university when only 15% went.

I think about half the children in the UK don't get 5 decent GCSEs and average IQ is 100 so plenty will never be going to university from all sectors of society. I think we went too far in going for about 50% going as the system is too expensive and most people never pay back their full loans so tax payers including the 85% of them my age who never got to go to university are paying for those who will never pay loans back.

This is interesting!
DD is doing an accountancy apprenticeship straight after A levels with a Big4 firm. It’s a level 7 (ACA, chartered) qualification whereas a degree is level 6. When she qualifies she won’t have a degree per se but will be a chartered accountant and paid exactly the same as the grads once they’re qualified. So the pay once qualified is the same. They’re all senior associates regardless. Obviously career progression and pay is dependent on ability after that but no one looks at the person’s degree (it’s likely irrelevant as could be English, history, chemistry, rarely accountancy at her firm). They’ll be looking at performance measures. The biggest issue, I believe, is if DD (or any apprentice) decides accountancy isn’t for them and fancies a career change. It’s very very difficult to know how easy this will be without a degree per se. The professional qualification is all very good if you’re in the right profession but what if it’s not - for the next 49 years (67-18). Hopefully it’s not an issue given she’ll have the equivalent of masters level study but I am a little concerned. Hope this helps answer your query @Piggywaspushed

One of DDs course mates (accountancy apprenticeship) boards over 100 miles away from home, with an older couple - not family friends or anything, just as a lodger. I think at 18 that was incredibly brave of her especially as it’s a 4 year course but she was determined to do the course despite her parents living in the sticks.

True, but the person fronting this documentary is a right winger. They didn’t support student grants especially so it’s a bit rich because it’s effectively saying “our style of politics made this too expensive, so try this … change your expectations and don’t go”.

Whilst I agree that universities should not be reduced to 'expensive finishing schools', studies do show that WC kids get the chance to acquire knowledge of social norms for workplace success in HE.

It may benefit young people from certain groups to go to university EVEN IF they're not academic & the degree course itself is not highly valued. We are all of us making decisions in imperfect systems.

A placement year or year in industry can provide work experience for the CV, a portfolio and contacts that would otherwise be difficult to obtain.

Other countries have national service programmes that include options outside of military service, much like the live-in voluntary placements a PP described.

Maybe this would allow teenagers to mature, live away from home, gain life skills, take more time to decide what path they want to commit to, all with the benefit of infrastructure (notably accomm + subsidised public transport), support, adult guidance & the collective peer group experience that university provides.

Just imagine if everyone, male and female, had to work in an essential role such as health / education / social work. for 12 months. How might that transform our culture & society & the value placed on jobs / salaries?

If only the government had time to address these issues rather than perfecting crony capitalism!

@Piggywaspushed I really can't remember, I'm afraid

Agreed @DuskyBlueDepartingLight - Germany offers a 'voluntary social year' (which used to be an alternative to national military service when that was a thing there), which sounds excellent.

Compare it to the UK National Citizen Service which was originally sold as a similar idea, but has a shiny website & offers 5 days away from home for £95. (Not that there's anything wrong with subsidised adventure trips for young people, they definitely have their place.)

So now I have watched the whole of this documentary. It was the most right wing, dumbed down load of rubbish I’ve ever seen.

A documentary needs to be made on the topic but not this one sided, inaccurate load of old cobblers.

university is expensive, but there must be an alternative to going into trade