BBC 2 9pm tonight Is University Really Worth it?

[Aslockton]

1 hour long programme tonight looking at the higher education sector. Might be worth a watch if you have young people thinking about university or other pathways.

The presenter is very right wing Geoff Norcott so I'm quite wary...

Geoff Norcott is not very right wing. He's a touch right of centre.

Would be interested to know what they’re presenting as an alternative. Professional apprenticeships exist in minuscule numbers, expanding this would be a start but that would cost employers so don’t hold your breath.

Even The Times said in the preview that his bias is very apparent and that the Beeb is probably doing it for 'balance' lest they be accused of being left wing by showing Darren McGarvey. Your definition of right wing might be different form mine.

The whole programme arises from Geoff wanting his son not to go to uni apparently.
I'm taping it but think it may enrage me. I hope his ideas are fact checked a bit.

Geoff Norcott describes himself as right wing.

I think the issue might be my qualifier of 'very' but he is described as being on the right of the current iteration of the Conservatives- which is not a touch right of centre.

Anyway, he is a working class boy who had lots of opportunities opened up to him by attending university. I trust he will acknowledge this at least. And, yes, his son -a middle class white boy with an influential parent may not need/ profit from university.

I have to ask, are you literally taping it? I'm intrigued!

I read an article about the programme in the Guardian (I know..) and he says something a long the lines of it being better to get a trade, the wealthiest people he knows have their names on the side of a van. All sounds a bit propaganda-ish to me.

No...I'm just old! My telly box lingo is stuck in the excitement of the early 90s.

I just had visions of you being supercool and retro!

Well, obviously....

I watched it and found it very interesting.
I see that Sheffield came out of it well.

One of the interviewees said that she was forced to pass students who weren't academically strong. I'd love to know which university she used to work at.

DD's university took no prisoners. If you didn't do the work you didn't pass.

Yes, my DS is doing history and it would seem the standard is still a 2:1 and it's really hard to get a first.

The content based A levels are getting more firsts but I honestly think many students work far harder.

I thought the programme was piecemeal. He didn't dwell on much. I thought he spent too long on the strikes etc at the beginning. And the bit on the plumbers was vapid - yes, you 'can' earn 60k (many don't). Someone with a degree 'can' earn 60k too. Those boys were enjoying themselves and being well looked after but they (and the boss) weren't academic and hadn't enjoyed school. And where were the girl school leavers? Besides which, not everyone can be a plumber : these either /ors always suggest that's an easy alternative. Both my DS's - clumsy,no spatial awareness, can't manipulate a ruler - would be terrible!! He mention uplift in earnings once but clearly had no interest in pursuing this.

I think in someone else's hands ,- and perhaps a series- this could have been an excellent programme : and more balance would have been great. Despite its question marked title , it did feel very skewed.

I haven't watched the last ten minutes mind. Did he mention how hard degree apprenticehips are to get, for example?

His 'Geoff Junior' just became a concept... we didn't get a sense of what he thought and where his skills and abilities lie, which I do think is relevant. And the trope of the car was stupid as they aren't equivalents! I'm sure Geoff Jr will do what he wants... I didn't see the point in him meeting his ex students either.

Geoff did come across a bit better than I thought he would. But he didn't seem very grateful for his own education.

So, I wasn't 'enraged' but I was frustrated.

And where were the girl school leavers?

DD did an admin apprenticeship instead of A-levels, and this is what struck me when we were looking, you could see that things would be more attractive to boys could potentially lead into well paying trades, but things more attractive for girls, less so, there were a lot of dental, nurses beauty type stuff, or the admin roles. DD has a predominantly working class, friendship group, and pretty much all the boys have gone into trades but pretty much all the girls have gone to university. It worked well for DD as it did inspire her into a different career and she's now in her second year at university, she said previously that she wasn't interested, but she's doing something very practical (that you do need a degree for). I can't see that she would have gone for something more academic.

Didn't agree with the detail but agree with the sentiment. Not everyone is academic, many degrees have little value, and many good careers don't need that level of education.

We seem to have replaced the 11+ divide with one at 18.

The data (that he didn't go through) does suggest the biggest uplift in earnings, though, is for working class boys from minority ethnic backgrounds and all females. I guess as Geoff Junior is white and male, Geoff senior isn't interested in that - but I couldn't decide if the programme was specific to Geoff Junior or generalised...

I did love the fact that the only worthy degrees he, and the plumber, kept mentioning were vets and doctors!

I'd like to know what 'I want a refund' Tia is doing now? Clearly she wanted a fine arts degree and too often the suggestion is they are a waste of money but I can't see her doing a hair and beauty apprenticeship instead. Her accent suggested family money to me - Id hate to go back to the days of uni being just for people with wealthy parents. I am not sure you can launch yourself into the world of art very easily without the portfolio and connections built up by a degree

DS's friendship circle includes a boy on a logistics degree apprenticeship - but he is very committed, diligent and earnest. He went through a very rigorous process to get accepted and has excellent sixth form results. He enjoys it, earns well already - but even he isn't sure how directly it will lead to a well paid graduate career.

many good careers don't need that level of education.

Could you name one, out of interest? Aside from the trades.

(obviously good is an entirely subjective term...)

Accountancy is academic and you don’t need a degree to do an apprenticeship. Not saying your daughter would want to do that but it is an option for some. I went to uni in the days before fees but honestly nowadays I wouldn’t bother if I knew I wanted to be an accountant. We take on graduates and a levels. The a level students take a little longer than graduates to do the professional qualification but it’s still quicker than uni + 3 years prof qualification and they are being paid throughout their training and no debt. Not sure about big 4 but there’s thousands of smaller accountancy practises (often still a decent size) that will offer this

chartered accountant is considered by many as a good profession and can be done by school leavers through an apprenticeship

A few I teach have been drawn to that route but, in the end , chosen slightly more generalised degrees (eg maths, business). I think we shouldn't overlook their desire to spread their wings, leave home (until the boomerang back again) . And the fact that they aren't sure, at 17, what career they want.

There are accountancy degrees too. Genuine question - is earning potential more with a degree in accountancy?

I am fairly sure this government wants to kill off the arts but I can't think of a no degree route for an arts/hums/soc sci inclined student.

It wasn't great was it. Hardly a cutting edge documentary.

There was no argument made for the government putting more money Iinto higher education - a good time to have made that point would have been when we learnt how much the 2 Sheffield universities contributed to the local economy and economic growth.

And sad to see no alternative careers for girls feafured at 16+ and 18+.

I'm sick of hearing that apprenticeships are a viable alternative for students at 18. They are for a small percentage of 18 year olds in a few types of career. I've one DD who took the academic STEM uni route and one DD in Year 13 who doesnt want to go to uni. I've basically had to become her careers advisor. Her college careers service is too stretched and not very effective. Where UCAS follows a neat path, the same doss not exist for apprenticeships and DD2 - doing a vocational BTEC - is looking for level 3 and level 4 apprenticeships as well as level 6. There's been very little to apply for, very little support and guidance from college to support the process and no clear idea if/when and how many there will be to apply for. Plus we're constrained by geography as a dc who doesn't want to go to uni is not necessarily ready to move away and cope with full time work and study while learning to live alone. It would be.much easier for her to go to uni.

Agree with every word of that.

I am supposed to advise my sixth form tutor group on UCAS (in subjects I know little about, usually!) The only reason I know what I do is MN and the experiences of my two DSs (both went to uni) and their friends.

Then I have to also advise on apprenticeships and most teachers know very little about this route and its pros and cons.

We have one careers lady for 500 students in the sixth form and, tbh, she spends most of her time on the 1500 students in the lower years.

genuine investment in careers services would be so beneficial. It's another baked in advantage of better funded, smaller schools...

If you do an accountancy degree then you get some exemptions from the professional qualifications, so after an accountancy degree you wouldn’t be a qualified accountant. if you went on and did chartered professional route you have less exams to do, it’s a 3 year training contract for graduates whatever the degree. A level students is a 4 year degree so technically they can be qualified by 22, where as a graduate would be 24 after 3 years at uni and training contract. I will add that on the whole the a level students do seem to struggle more with passing the professional exams but this isn’t a hard and fast rule and there’s some graduates that struggle and a level students that fly so it depends on person to a greater extent. Starting salary will be slightly higher for a graduate but within a firm once they have qualified it would depend more on what the person was like at the job regardless of being graduate or not. A graduate potentially has more earning potential although I wouldn’t say that’s certain. For your more high flying jobs, big four accountants, working in the city etc then it probably is needed but for the vast majority of graduates that enter accountancy I would say it doesn’t make any difference once they’ve qualified

I was a nurse assessor in practice. I tried to fail a couple of dangerous student nurses but the uni wouldn't have any of it.

Yes, DDs went to a selective school for years 11-16. Apprenticeships are being pushed there and the students are getting individual advice and attention, work experience, all the value added parts from the start of Year 12.

DD's college hasn't even had any speakers in for her subject over the time she's been there and she's studying ICT.

That's more to do with the government not funding nursing properly though and a shortage of recruits? We have the same in teaching - pass everyone. Sigh. They then usually last a year.