BBC 2 9pm tonight Is University Really Worth it?

[Aslockton]

1 hour long programme tonight looking at the higher education sector. Might be worth a watch if you have young people thinking about university or other pathways.

To a point it's true. DH didn't do any programming as part of his degree and most of his peers are self taught. It's only more recent grads who have degrees.

BUT it depends on what you do and to what level. He's always been in employment rather than a do his own start up or contracted and he found he got to a point where a degree was more or less required for further progression.

His last company took on newly grads on £60k starting - in the NW.

I think if you do a start up, it's true but if you want to be employed it's got more and more like other sectors and there definitely merit in a degree too.

This also glasses over the sheer number of tech start ups which fail.

DH joined the merchant navy after A levels. He qualified as a navigation officer, working on oil tankers. He then moved across to cargo inspection and then to refining. He’s now earning well into six figures.

But presumably he's not 17 now??

You know, there are other reasons to go to university... There was a thread yesterday from a parent trying to seek a similar type of 'spreading wings' opportunity for her DC that didn't want to go to uni or travel. She wasn't coming up with much...

But yes to PP who observed no apprentiships in arts/ humanities (and btw economics isn't arts/ humanities!). The govt doe not want people to go into these areas. Which is fucking bonkers because the creative industries contributes an extraordinarily massive amount to the UK economy. And I'm sure Christopher Nolan (who, by the way, studied English Literature) got some sort of hypocritical congratulatory message from the PM after picking up his Oscar for best director on Sunday night. Along with Jonathan Glazer (who studied theatre design and production) for his Oscar for best international feature film. (And a load of other Brits who picked up statues...)

I saw the social science apprenticeship advertised. It did look really good.

The government want working class and lower middle class kids doing trades and apprenticeships, because if they do arts degrees or social sciences it tends to turn working class people into Labour voters.

Menomeno - were those all level 6 apprenticeships?

He's an English graduate and an entertainer, so obviously at some point valued the arts.

Maybe he still does - for wealthy kids.

Exactly this. There was a clip of James McAvoy talking about this on Jimmy Kimmel (I think). The arts and humanities broaden horizons, develop critical thinking. Whereas the govt just wants worker bees...

I didn't want to think about a steady career and earning potential when I was 17. I wanted to read Nietzsche and drink good coffee, I wanted to debate, I wanted to speak to people outside of my very WC estate. I wanted to travel. I wanted to read journals and articles I could only get from academic institutions.
University is about so much more than your future employment. Did I end up working in a cafe? Yes. Was a happier person due to having that time to create and develop? Yes.
WC kids will always choose to study the arts and be creative despite the odds being very stacked against us. It all comes down to connections, the ability to live in an area where art is happening, as well as having the option to work for free or cheap (unpaid internships) and that is why we fail. Opening up opportunities could change that.

Not when they left school, because that’s not how the majority of Apprenticeships work. You’d do a level 2/3 and when you’d finished that, move onto a level 4, etc. You wouldn’t leave school and go onto a Higher. DD1 is Level 7 now, DD2 is level 4 but will go onto a higher app at the end of her current program.

That does not sound much fun or very socially broadening for a young person.

It’s perfect for her as she’s disabled with Long Covid, and couldn’t manage being office based every day. She sees friends and has hobbies outside of work. And obviously the lack of a 60 grand debt is a bonus!

"You know, there are other reasons to go to university... There was a thread yesterday from a parent trying to seek a similar type of 'spreading wings' opportunity for her DC that didn't want to go to uni or travel. She wasn't coming up with much..."

I haven't seen the programme, but I do think that this isn't a great reason to go to uni & where friends' DCs have taken that approach they've tended to be the ones who've dropped out or not done particularly well.

DD was in that situation post A levels, wanting to move away from home to a city (we live in rural Wales) but not wanting to go to uni. She did a live-in volunteering placement for a year which was perfect, and in fact as a result is now studying a degree in a subject related to the volunteering.

There's quite a lot of live in volunteer opportunities around, a few dd looked at but didn't follow up because countryside based were working as a voluntary ranger or as a YHA voluntary warden, then there were various opportunities for live-in support work with places like the Simon communities.

That obviously doesn't mean uni isn't worth it - but more that I do think many young people would benefit from going a little bit later.

DD's 6th form college really pushed her to apply pre-A levels (with the argument that she could always take a year out). But it really wouldn't have been a good choice for her, she'd definitely have ended up on the wrong course. Being a couple of years older (due to Covid she worked locally for a year before going off to the city volunteering) made a real difference to her maturity & ability to make the most of her degree.

All young people are amazingly different.

I agree sadi but gap years do remain a bastion of the more affluent in general. The precise people who (statistically) stand to gain most both economically aand socially form university are the ones who cannot afford to delay it. And are also the ones who otehr people seem most keen to put off with the 'learn a trade' / 'not for the likes of you' type discourse.

The precise people who (statistically) stand to gain most both economically aand socially form university are the ones who cannot afford to delay it.

Why do those who don’t take a gap year stand to gain more socially than those who do?
My dc worked and earned money for most of their gap years.

This is absolutely true. Uni will be right for some and not for others. But I think every young person should have the opportunity to go to university to study whatever they want to study. And that is becoming increasingly harder. Soon arts/humanities will be taught primarily/only at RG Unis/ Oxbridge and therefore primarily the preserve of the already privileged/ those who already have access to cultural capital.

And, as noted up thread, the industries that these degrees typically feed into (i.e. cultural industries) are already woefully skewed towards the white middle-classes. And anyone who thinks 'oh, Mickey Mouse subjects...', diverse representation in the arts, humanities and media is so, so important. It's about whose stories get told, who we see on our screens, what history gets remembered, and so on.

No, you misunderstood -stand to gain more form university.

Yes, I understood that and I wondered why those who don’t have a gap year stand to gain more at university than those who don’t.

I think unless there is a family estrangement etc taking a gap year makes a lot of sense now. I don’t mean those travel schemes that have a slightly odd white saviour vibe - but to get a real job perhaps locally so you earn some money to contribute to uni costs. And also have time to think and decide if the degree is exactly right for you

I agree Piggy that gap years tend to be more of a rich people thing (was ever the case) - but they don't need to be if young people were more aware of the fact that there are free & supportive volunteering options open to them.

As it stands, it's very much set up as either go straight to uni or apply then take a gap year out & travel which isn't going to be realistic for those from lower income households, plus equally will be harder for those (like my dd) who may have disabilities / be neurodiverse etc etc.

What a seriously rubbish programme. No serious stats or examination of the pros and cons that might benefit a young person trying to make a decision about their future. Just silly soundbites.

Agreed. It was very low quality.