BBC 2 9pm tonight Is University Really Worth it?

[Aslockton]

1 hour long programme tonight looking at the higher education sector. Might be worth a watch if you have young people thinking about university or other pathways.

Primary school friends all 23 now who've kept in touch

3 went to university got degrees, 2 doing masters

6 did apprenticeships

1 went into family business

Of the 6 that did apprenticeships 3 have now bought their first house.

i definitely wont be watching as two of my three dc are graduates
one though went via a type of apprentice, so he was smart in retrospect
it depends where their interests lay

That's down to that university. Where I work we would absolutely support our practice colleagues in failing students in placement. I will not have unsafe students qualifying. Yes they can have a resit and support but ultimately if they are still not safe then they fail programme.

I think the whole system needs an overhaul. The problem is that employers see university as universally attainable due to loans and are often now just using degrees as a screening tool for aptitude/ minimum intelligence so there's a false assumption that no degree= not intelligent/academic enough for Uni and also for "this job I'm advertising" which is obviously untrue. However, it means that a lot of young people feel they have to do do degrees or have false barriers put in their way.

Recognising that currently the taxpayer massively subsidises degrees anyway, I think the following could help:

• Gov pays fees for degrees in areas of high social value/ unmet need (teaching, nursing medicine for a start) but only if the person works in that role in the UK public sector for X years, otherwise repayable on an end loaded sliding scale (i.e. more value put on more experience)
• 200% corporation tax deduction to employers for costs associated with professional and trade apprenticeships/ degree apprenticeships.
• Higher nil rate tax band for people aged under 21 so that working from 18 pays more.

Totally agree with PP re accountancy being a great example of an academically challenging career that is attainable without Uni. I did accountancy as a grad scheme but honestly my degree had zero read through to accountancy and I would have been just an effective accountant/employee if I'd started as a school leaver, with one caveat: I didn't even know that the Big 6 existed when I was 18 and I wouldn't have applied. However, arguably that barrier no longer exists to anywhere near the same extent because of the internet.

You can't assess the value of a degree vs apprenticeship at the age of 23 though! Wait till you're all 43. Maybe those that did apprenticeships will still be in the same 3 bed semis while the graduates are in 5 bed detached!

I think the "graduates earn more" argument is tricky tbh as there are so many correlative factors. Is it the actual degree or is it the other factors that correlate with university attendance and which contribute to the higher earnings (as a cohort they are more likely to have stable and not impoverished family background, likely to be of above average intelligence, more likely to have some sort of work ethic- i.e. did a fair bit of work at school ). I'm not sure it's true for many graduates - would be interesting to see if there's any research that controls for all other factors.

The data certainly exists for economic background. Apart from a subset of white working class boys, all groups benefit in lifetime earnings from attending university.

His opinion is of absolutely no interest to me. There are so many people in television and journalism who presume to tell us what our opinions should be, often with considerably less knowledge and experience than we have.

Yes, the programme introduced him as an 'ex teacher'. I am not sure that gives him huge weight anyway but the programme certainly wasn't about any recent educational insights he had (I don't think he has taught since the late 90s) . At one point he referred to YTS!

Darren McGarvey at least does his research pretty thoroughly!

@Morph22010 a degree makes no difference to progression in big 4 accountancy firms - at least not at the one where I worked for 18 years. It’s always been possible to train without a degree - my first boss was in his 60s in the early 2000s and was the director of the Private Client team. The senior manager I worked with most had left school at 16 in the early 80s, done ACCA exams at an FE college and been recruited by the big 4 firm at 18 to do CTA (tax) exams. The last director I worked for before I left 5 years ago didn’t have a degree and neither did two of the senior managers. There are some old fashioned employers, like the university I work at now, which ask for a degree, but the employers where you’ll earn a lot as an accountant - big 4 and big industry - don’t care.

We don't really have data to know if degrees are necessary and worth it longer term. People doing really well without degrees generally started their careers before the massive increase in people getting degrees. In an era where the majority get a degree, they might be necessary.

With apologies to those providing insights, can anyone come up with an example otehr than accountancy of a professional job (or equivalent status/remuneration) where a degree isn't necessary?

I am guessing to Geoff it was all about the money and earnings (unless vet/doctor who were exempted - who will think of the dentists???).

You can also become a solicitor via a degree apprenticeship and according to the ongoing thread on this, they're becoming increasingly popular with law firms.

You obviously need a degree to become a surveyor, but there are lots of degree apprenticeships as my ds is interested in these, so you don't need to go to uni - but not sure that's what you're after? Same with the various allied healthcare apprenticeships.

Correction - the solicitor apprenticeship isn't a degree apprenticeship, strictly speaking, as I don't think you get a degree (like the accountancy ones).

I haven't seen the documentary, have only read the reviews.

I agree that the local offer at 16/18 & accommodation options, are make or break factors for so many.

There aren't enough apprenticeships, not everyone knows what jobs exist as a teenager, some kids don't get on well enough with their families to continue living at home (or to get the state expected financial contribution from parents if at uni), most jobs that don't require degrees now ask for degrees...lots of push factors.

It's a mistake IMO to reduce the value of a degree to future earning potential. Education is intrinsically valuable & creates many benefits for a society that cannot be measured with money.

The disappearance of adult education, night classes etc. is also dispiriting.

Employers need to pay more towards training.

There's an academic researcher of decisions re. FE/HE & barriers on MN but I can't remember her username. Always interesting to read her comments.

I've watched to the end now. No idea why he went back to the school (which , btw, is the next along to mine!) and then didn't speak to any current 16 and 17 year olds or to any teachers, careers advisors.

And Geoff- it's a stag- and has always been the emblem.

I think I met Geoff once on a training thing.

I begged my dc not to go to university since neither of them were interested in academic work. However they wanted to do what their friends were doing, and the one argument I couldn’t refute was that so many employers these days insist on a degree.
It was a waste of time and money (though they did enjoy themselves and made lots of friends).

What do they do now?

I'm apprehensive about watching, DD has accepted a place at uni for an art/creative degree. The average graduate salaries for that subject are woeful and she is aware of this

Neither DH or went to uni and wanted our DC to have the opportunity if they wanted. (We'll support them financially in addition to loans) DS is a few years away yet but at the moment is not set on uni and would consider an apprenticeship.

I have a few friends with children at uni just now and they feel a bit ripped off for what they are paying for. It’s not just that it costs it’s sometimes the quality doesn’t match up.

DH went down the academic route, his sibling did an apprenticeship. His sibling has earned more money, but physically is in poor condition coming up to 60 from years of physical work, he’s also I would say had zero satisfaction from the work. It was something picked for him by his dad and he’s been stuck with it for over 40 years.

Ive told DD to stay In education, she’s autistic and needs the time to grow up more. I thinking a working environment at 16 would be a disaster for her. I worked in a training college, it was 95% male students, the girls were all at college doing hairdressing and travel and tourism, there needs to be better and more available choices before uni is completely discounted.

Piggywaspushed -my dd has a job at an advertising/branding company (I don’t know that much about it as she had to sign a non disclosure thing which she obeys). She is not enjoying it as she says the atmosphere in the office is ‘toxic’ so she’s going to start looking for another job.
She’s good at sewing and buys second hand children’s clothes and improves them with embroidery and what-not and sells them on Instagram.
Ds worked for some years as an interpreter and now has started a business with a friend so fingers crossed.

Having a trade in a career

It's right about so many employers insisting on a degree for jobs which in the past would not have needed one. I worked in a call centre for a bit - everyone had a degree. All the admin staff inc office juniors at my current job are graduates.

It’s not just accountancy. Two of my DCs did accountancy apprenticeships, DD is now chartered. She was earning £50K+ before she had even qualified, which is a huge salary in the north (and no debt). Younger DD is doing a data science apprenticeship. A friend’s DS has just qualified as a chartered surveyor. You can do Social Work, Engineering, Management, HR, Nursing, Policing - literally most careers, via the apprenticeship route. It’s not just for joiners and bricklayers.

I've been researching level 6 apprenticeships for the last year for ds. Many of these give degrees, so they don't quite fit the category of professional/well paid careers without a degree, but they don't require 'going to university'. I've only been looking for ones my ds, without any science A Levels, could do. There are heaps more on the science/engineering side, but I've found:

Retail management (eg Morrisons)
Food sector management (eg McDonald's)
Entertainment sector management (eg Merlin)
Banking (eg Barclays, Lloyds)
Surveying (eg Barratt)
Supply chain logistics (eg Clipper)
Social sciences research role - the government
Project management (eg Rolls Royce)
Economist - the government
Sales (eg Coca Cola)

Then there are all the accountancy and solicitor ones. These are just some that I think may suit my ds. All of them confer a degree apart from the accountancy/solicitor ones, which give you professional qualifications.