Agonising between university offers

[Redhotchillipeppers]

DS had narrowed his university offers down to Warwick, Durham and Leeds. He has applied for maths and is predicted 4A stars. Warwick is ranked considerably higher for maths than the other 2, but not keen on the travel from leamington spa/coventry in years 2&3. It is 2.5 hour drive from us. Durham seems like a great student experience, but heard some stories about lack of student accommodation in years 2&3, coming with a very high price tag. Leeds is on the doorstep and several of DSs friends are planning on going there. Both he and us are struggling to decide on what would be best.

@Piggywaspushed I think you have forgotten Edinburgh. My DS is also an Oxford reject! I think the problem is that many of the people rejected after interview will be top of their school in Maths, scoring very highly and heading for 4x A stars. It's difficult for them as everything else will be a second choice. There is also the thing I keep hearing that while Oxbridge welcomes re-applicants in general (so others for different subjects in a similar boat re-apply), it's tougher, almost frowned upon for Maths as there is the thought they may forget some of their Maths skills. Is this actually true? I think DS is going to firm Edinburgh as he thinks that a lot of the people there, due to the fees situation will be Scottish applicants who didn't apply to Oxbridge and also second year entry making use of his further Maths A level, appeals to him. He also liked Edinburgh as a city. We are concerned about the cost though, I've heard renting in Edinburgh is expensive! @Redhotchillipeppers your son may have more idea of what he would like to do after he does the offer holder's days.

There is info here from Christs College Cambridge about gap years:

https://www.christs.cam.ac.uk/how-apply-1/gap-year

Wrt maths, it recommends planning to keep up maths skills or taking an additional maths related qualification.

That might well vary college by college though - as suggested here:

https://www.maths.cam.ac.uk/undergrad/admissions/files/admissions/admissionsguide.pdf

Forgotten Edinburgh from my list? No, my list was just illustrative of what the brightest mathematicians at my school do. My school has maybe one or two students a year apply to Edinburgh (or any Scottish uni).

Actually, this year , no one has applied for maths at all! The really good mathematicians (and most of the less brilliant) are all going for engineering. It's really shot up in popularity.

@mushroom3 yes I’m hoping that the offer holder days will clear the air and help him see things more clearly. I think during the open days he didn’t really take in Warwick and Durham in the same way maybe I did, and is currently unable to give me any opinion on either. At least there’s no negative opinions about those two as yet, other than the minor inconvenience of possible Warwick accommodation locations.

@SabrinaThwaite Thank you for the information. It’s good to have even though it’s unlikely DS will choose that route.

My son turned down Warwick, (it was his lowest offer but not for maths ), much to the shock of everyone especially his teachers who tried to pressure him based on reputation alone.

It sounds like he’s quite an organised and mature guy listing his pros and cons etc and as such if Leeds comes out top for him then that’s what he should go for.
My son has never looked back.

@JackNoMiddleNameReacher not just pros and cons. Down to the detail of compound interest on student finance, the difference being at home/away makes. On the avg salary based on the uni guide with x % rise how long it would take to pay back on plan 5 etc 😂

No wonder he’s studying maths 😀😀
Mine did check out the nearest Aldi though 🤣

As an aside OP your username has brought back very fond memories of when I saw The Red Hot Chilli Peppers in concert when I was a student in the US.
Wish I was a student again!

@JackNoMiddleNameReacher lol. It was great being at uni.

@JackNoMiddleNameReacher DS was invited by the economics/maths teacher yesterday to attend a talk HMRC was giving to the economics A-level students (DS doesn’t take economics). Part of the talk included personal income tax brackets and apparently the HMRC reps provided incorrect information on how tax is calculated for earners above £125k. They’d forgotten about the loss of the tax allowance. DS raised his hand and said I think…to which they agreed. He was surprised no one else in the room questioned it. He was the only one that knew how much the government raises in tax annually. And he tells me he’s not interested in finance. His maths teacher clearly knows him better than he knows himself.

Warwick for Maths will get a lot more more traction with premium graduate Maths employers than Leeds, its definitely not just southern employers. Has he rejected Manchester already? If not I'd reconsider it before finally rejecting. I agree with PPs that for Maths gap years are generally not welcomed, especially in the top departments. Does he have much view on likely careers at this stage?

Its tricky - finding a mix of academic and non academic factors. What does Warwick offer him in terms of activities which align with his personal interests? Those groups are the groups which will keep him going at difficult times. School age GF/BF are unlikely to survive university but today's teens are no less resistant to that message than we were!

@C8H10N4O2 Manchester was really a filler for him as I made him choose 5, so is unlikely to take a closer look.

This is tricky @Redhotchillipeppers
I've been reading and see the logic behind the " go to the "best" place you can" advice.

Then I remembered that DD and her now boyfriend both chose Swansea because they liked the feel. DD's boyfriend chose Swansea over Warwick which must have raised some eyebrows. He was top of his year through 4 years of integrated masters.

They are both STEM graduates with great jobs and happy as pigs in shit now. They had a blast at Swansea, worked hard and met each other.

It can be fun being at uni bit it's a lot of work and a bit of a slog too so liking the place helps.

Last thought is that making the decision is actually hard. It's a sliding doors moment and if you have any FOMO or tendency to overthink things, it makes it much harder

He should note if he's using Discover uni for grad salaries they're self-reported and less than half of grads disclose salary details.

He might want to google HMRC LEO data which will be much more thorough (though not without its issues - namely that actual salary is reported with nothing on whether that's for full time or part time work.)

Obviously Warwick for Maths. A couple of years of getting a bus is nothing compared to the foundation he will get for the rest of his life.

A friend of my DC's is currently doing Maths at Warwick, loving being stretched, she also does a lot of music there.

Hi, OP -

I did not address the question of a gap year because DS did not sound interested. PPs are correct that in STEM, admissions tutors generally discourage or decline to grant it out of a concern that Maths will be lost. However I’ve always thought that excellent students have learnt deeply enough to make individual decisions based on their plans for the year (including the need to do some Maths).

The decision is ultimately for the Senior Admissions Tutor in each unit of admissions. I have heard of Cambridge Maths making post-qualification admissions; I believe Imperial does not except under Mitigating Circumstances. I am not sure about Warwick or Oxford. Durham does want your boy keenly so might be more willing to defer him.

However deferral may just extend the stress. I suspect settling now (with the possibility of an early transfer in the back of his mind) might be best for DS.

@titchy Perhaps you can help with a question i have about the graduate salaries on discover uni - Are these the salaries showing the likely slalaries a graduate will command within their university town or what they will command anywhere in the U.K e.g if you graduate from Bangor uni, Bsc Chemistry and work in Bangor= £20,000, but if Bangor uni graduate goes to work in London they will get more. Are the Discoveruni salaries based on the town the uni is in?

The salaries are those reported by the graduates themselves when they are surveyed 15 months later regardless of whether they stayed in Bangor or moved to London.

It's noticeable that universities in cheaper geographical areas show lower salaries compared to those closer to London or more industrialised towns for the same subject. Perhaps a lot of graduates stay in their uni town and if the town has a cheaper cost of living that is reflected in the salary rather than what the graduate actually able to command, not sure I'm explaining this very well.

You're exactly right. A lot of students don't actually move away to go to uni - in many institutions the vast majority have stayed at home, particularly unis with a big WP agenda. Salaries reflect those paid locally, which will be higher for grads than non-grads. But no one can claim that a grad level job for a Computer Science grad in Northumbria will pay the same as London.

You've captured what I'm trying to say, but if the grad from Northumbria uni gets a job in London, or Manchester, they will likely get a much higher salary. Therefore, students shouldn't overthink the salaries on discoveruni but bear in mind the impact of geographical location.

Thanks @titchy

Which is why I suggested LEO data which does have work location.

DD is in 3rd year at Warwick doing maths and philosophy. She's had a great time socially, and has also really enjoyed her course. She lived in Leamington second year and is in Coventry for her 3rd year.