How did DD get a third? Anyone who works at uni know?

[greensofas]

Bright DD, AAB at a level (covid results but all essays marked at that level) got her Russell group uni of choice in a topic she had studied at A level. Worked hard at uni, tons of library time and going to lectures/study groups. Has struggled all the way through with ups and downs in results even though she has enjoyed subject. In final year found it all very hard and ended up on antidepressants and therapy. Still worked like a Trojan though (competitive with herself)
Just graduated with a third. I know she is depressed with result and after googling and coming on mumsnet, everyone seems to say 'only the lowest get thirds these days' or 'only the ones that didn't even try'
She doesn't seem to be either of those things. I feel so sad for her. Any advice or words or wisdom?

JenniferBarkley wrote a great post, second everything in it and hope your dd is ok. She’s done brilliantly to get over the line with her degree, my friend’s very bright son struggled in second year, totally disengaged (anxiety and depression I think) and was kicked out so never underestimate the fact that she managed to hang on until the end of her degree.
Hope you can help her find her way forward to the next step, you sound like a lovely Mum (or Dad😀)

This is a very similar story to my DP (who graduated with a 3rd in 2010, for the info of poster above who thinks these positive anecdotes don't help). Bright, motivated and hard working but had terrible exam preparation technique and just didn't have the university support to identify why he had started to struggle after finding A-levels so easy.

He got an entry level admin job in a mid sized accountancy firm and is still there now. They put him through all of the exams and he has had multiple promotions and earns very well now. I, on the other hand have a 1st from a top 10 Russell Group uni and a distinction at Masters and have struggled to find work that I find fulfilling and pays the bills, particularly after having children.

So much growth and opportunity happens in your twenties so I hope your daughter can find something that works for her. If her mental health is something that she may have to consider in the longer term then I think there's something to be said for realising early on that perhaps the very competitive grad schemes may not lead her to a career where she can balance her wellbeing with work.

I think it’s worth remembering the difference between top 3rd and bottom 2:1 is only about 10%.
yes a few avenues might close to her but it really depend on her subject. Get some job related experience and it will become much less significant in a few years, for many careers to the point of being insignificant. Vast majority of jobs/ qualifications accept experience and commitment on the job as being equal when applying
quite a few people got 3rds on my course, hardly any 1st were given out

@greensofas I really would advise she thinks again about travelling.
The days of having a gap year are over- they don't add much to a CV unless it's something very impressive where she's going to do something that will benefit her career (ie charity work overseas) it will be a waste of a year.

I'd focus on suggesting she has some career guidance (Russell Gp unis offer this post-graduation) or at least finds a temporary job to give her some work experience (soft skills.)

If her mental health is something that she may have to consider in the longer term then I think there's something to be said for realising early on that perhaps the very competitive grad schemes may not lead her to a career where she can balance her wellbeing with work

100%

Positive anecdotes help if recent! Just not sure the 'my uncle got a third in 1972 and now he runs British Gas' ones add much !

Shinethelights travelling is a good in itself - not everything has to add to a CV!

Yes,I know that. But you stated that 'most' grad schemes require a 2.1 , and 'most' is not true.

I understand why she's not ready to look more closely at a breakdown of marks but I do think it's important to see where she struggled.

I have worked in HE for years and attended countless exam boards. In my experience, getting a 3rd doesn't come down to having a bad time in one single class. The most common reasons are not doing well in their dissertation (which is usually worth three times the credits of a standard module) or their coursework is fine but they really struggle to perform in exams, which pulls down the average.

Universities' hands are tied pretty firmly without robust evidence of extenuating circumstances, too. We're usually aware of what's going on with "at risk" students but unless they go through the proper procedures and submit evidence, leniency is very limited. As others have mentioned, without evidence, re-sits or late submissions may be capped at 50, or even 40 (i.e. marked as pass/fail).

You also said 'most' Master's ask for a 2.1 , which also isn't true.

I think a gap year now, travelling and working in an entirely different sphere would be so helpful, perhaps coupled with counselling or treatment for her anxiety. It may be that the environment of the uni just was too much, as it is for some of my students, and rather than seek help (which she would have got for things like study skills), she became overwhelmed.

I would use this year to get work experience or an internship (preferably relevant to her desired career but not necessarily) but more importantly to decompress and give her time away from the pressure of studying and university demands. Once she relaxes a bit and does other things that she's good at this will make the future more possible to see.

It is unusual to get a third these days and my suspicion is she either failed to turn in work through stress and then got marks capped at 40% or failed some modules completely (e.g. stats if they are rubbish at stats) as it is quite hard to get a third without getting additional MH or wellbeing involved (at our uni anyway) as usually students seek help or otherwise come to our attention if they are falling off the pathways.

I'd let that go though, she's done well to get through, but I'd nurture her MH and encourage her to build her confidence in other ways in this year. No pressure essentially.

I think the standard cap for a resit is 40 - butt he OP hasn't clarified whether there were any condoned fails/resits. I am assuming there must have been...

I did MSc in early 2000s to mainly change subject areas - but many of the program had got 2:2 degrees and were getting automatically rejected from on-line job applications forms for graduate programs despite good marks on masters.

However they all went on to find jobs and work eventually - so when she is in the right frame of mind I'd encourage her to use the university careers service and see if they have advice for her - and in mean time while it may be harder for some careers and jobs reassure her there are still opportunities out there.

One of my friends got a 3rd and in her case it was a great result because she was at risk of not graduating at all. It made all the difference that she had a degree. She entered a graduate training scheme and now 20 years later still works for that company and I suspect is the highest earner out of the friendship group! The rest of us got 2.1s.

I think you daughter has overcome an awful lot to graduate and gain her degree- well done to her

@Secnarf Since when can medics get thirds? I thought there weren't the usual degree classifications in medicine?

Hi OP, so I would advice having a read through the academic regulations of your DD's university and see if there is a route to appeal. Some university's will have appeal procedures if there are many "9"s (49s in this case) in the overall module mark and/or there were personal/medical issues. Regs differ from uni to uni, so some offer final year resits others don't for example, so you will need to know the specifics of your DD's university. Then once you know what the process is then gently approach your daughter and ask to see the transcript, just to see if there are grounds to appeal and then you can take it from there. Depending on the circumstances and the university, some appeal procedures can be quite tough. Though for other if it is because there are a lot 9s can actually be relatively easy. It all depends on the uni and the specific regs.

Also have a look if any of the modules were impacted by the marking and assessment boycott and see depending on what "fix" the university put in place of your DD could have been negatively impacted.

If there doesn't look like there are grounds to appeal or your DD would just prefer to move on, that's okay too. This year across the university sector there has been generally lower attainment and higher withdrawal rates, it really spans from COVID, it has been really tough if this specific age group at uni. And like other PP have mentioned she can get some work experience and then maybe apply for postgrad study on the topic of the modules she did best at possible. The more experience she gets the less relevant her grade will become and she should be proud that she got herself through clearly a tricky time.

Unless it's different at Oxford? 🤷‍♀️

Oxford certainly classifies in that way. DS1 is an Oxford Medicine graduate and I have his degree certificate somewhere in my desk.

That's the case for the pre-clinical element, the first three years.

I would say with what you described she just didn’t ‘get it’, that’s not that she was lazy or unintelligent. I used to be a lecturer and teach and mark essays and exams at a Russell university and getting a 2:1 or above in an essay or exam (most exams are essays) is a skill, a knack even a bit of a formula and it doesn’t sound like she ‘got it’.

im referring to the humanities btw and until I ‘got it’ I was struggling to, I’d be putting hours in at the library and getting 2:2s but it’s a formula and when I got that right but grades literally changed over night and went from 55 to well above 70, in fact most case 75-85. (The university I was at did stepped marking so you could only get a 3,5 or 8 Ie 53,55, 58)

There's a lot of talk about whether young people can apply to grad schemes with a 2.2 but the key thing is really whether they get selected. Sometimes people get a first or a very high 2.1 because getting a first or a very high 2.1 can require skills valued by the more competitive employers. Ability to perform under pressure for one. That and other skills which may be valued are likely to show up in the selection process so whether or not one can technically apply is likely to be pretty irrelevant.

She graduated from her degree at a Russell Group University after suffering heath problems during her study. She has done really well, she is young, the world is her oyster.

There is a rich world beyond corporate grad schemes.

I don’t think it’s impossible to do well with a third but I do thing that it creates a few more obstacles and means she’ll just have to work that little bit harder to get her foot in the door.
She’ll get there. It’s just about attitude and hard work now.

only the lowest 10% - but what does this mean ? Surely not 10% of graduates with lowest grades , lowest IQ (whatever IQ is ) ?
She may be in the 10% of graduates who left university with a third , but that doesn't define her or her intelligence.
It may mean she finds it harder to compete for jobs but attitude and application (which it appears she has ) are what counts outside academia.I know plenty of highly qualified people c who struggle v in the real world.
I wish I could give her a big hug , tell her honestly things will work out. And that she is NOT "the lowest 10%".
She's bright, clever, sensitive, hard working and had the strength to persevere when things got tough. Exams don't measure that.

If she does 2 years at the OU she can get a new UG degree and can try for a 1st/2:1.

If she wants to do a pg most want a 2:1.

Teaching is fine though.

Depends what she wants as a career though?

Loads of graduates I know are doing admin/call centre/charity type jobs they didn't need a degree fit anyway. She should do volunteering to give her extra experience.