How did DD get a third? Anyone who works at uni know?

[greensofas]

Bright DD, AAB at a level (covid results but all essays marked at that level) got her Russell group uni of choice in a topic she had studied at A level. Worked hard at uni, tons of library time and going to lectures/study groups. Has struggled all the way through with ups and downs in results even though she has enjoyed subject. In final year found it all very hard and ended up on antidepressants and therapy. Still worked like a Trojan though (competitive with herself)
Just graduated with a third. I know she is depressed with result and after googling and coming on mumsnet, everyone seems to say 'only the lowest get thirds these days' or 'only the ones that didn't even try'
She doesn't seem to be either of those things. I feel so sad for her. Any advice or words or wisdom?

This may well be it - as well as the health problems.

I did well with science undergraduate degree a mix of calculations and essay writing and short question - but later in life studied humanities subject area with OU and it took a while before I got decent grades - and reading a how to write essay book recommended to us and going to the optional tutor sessions and listening very hard - I wasn't suddenly stupid or lazy it was just different what they were looking for.

I do worry about DD1 because she can get very defensive when things don't go well and does not take on board the criticisms and burry head in sand rather than try and crack the formula wanted.

I certainly wouldn't be advising further study at this point! I can't imagine she'd want to anyway.

Have worked in unis and sat on boards - agree with previous poster that the long-form project (dissertation or equivalent) is responsible for dragging candidates down usually. This is because candidates who are doing badly in final exams usually (though not always) realise it’s not going well and seek some mitigation (if they have grounds) or a deferral.

I would say four things. First, as loads have already said degree results are far from everything and finding something fulfilling that gives you the environment you need to be happy and healthy is most important.

Second, it is very difficult to appeal once an exam board has made a decision. You generally have to show that there was either a procedural irregularity in how the marks were arrived at or the decision at the board made or there were exceptional circumstances that the board was not aware of at the time they made their decision.

Third, when you can speak about the mark break down I would try to find out about her dissertation or equivalent and see if it was much lower than she was expecting. During the Marking strike some marking has been done in some universities by staff who are not necessarily well-equipped to make judgements about highly specific areas of dissertation work. This shouldn’t be happening but the universities are being unscrupulous in allocating markers. If it’s well below what she expected and particularly if there is very short, generic feedback then she could email her supervisor or Head of Department to raise this. It won’t necessarily do anything but I would be amazed if we don’t see at least a few board decisions change in some universities due to dissertations being allocated to an inappropriate marker. It could be very difficult to prove though.

Finally I would look at the regulations for exam board discretion. Most boards have some discretion where a final result is borderline between classes. Again, there’s usually no grounds for appeal but if her overall result is borderline 3/2.2 and your university has a discretion policy, and her mark falls within the parameters of this policy, you could ask them to confirm that discretion was considered. If it wasn’t considered you may have grounds for appeal on the basis of a procedural error. Again, this may not change the result but it would mean that that marks would be looked at under the discretion policy.

You don't need to believe me. Those are the facts.

I would be amazed if we don’t see at least a few board decisions change in some universities due to dissertations being allocated to an inappropriate marker.

One would hope that double marking and moderation would flag up inappropriate markers. But, yes, some could slip through the net.

I think it's essential that she (and probably you) look at the components making up the final degree level, there'll be a list of all modules over the full 3 years showing the marks/percentages and weighting towards the final degree mark.

She'll have been receiving marks for each piece of work/progress test, etc that she's done over the 3 years, so unless the "final" works were absolute disasters, she'd know what kind of "flightpath" she was on as each semester passed.

If she's genuinely surprised and shocked, that tends to suggest she was performing well in most of the modules in years 2 and 3 and something's gone badly wrong at the end (final exams, final dissertation etc).

Only looking at the marks/percentages for each module over the final 2 years will tell her/you the reality of the situation.

I would say that a third is still a pass, and generally speaking would mean an average mark across all work over the final 2 years as over 40% (ballpark figure). That's the same or similar to the "pass" mark used in a lot of professional exams (though more commonly 50%), so it's by no means a failure at all and still valuable. As many others have said, it's still a degree pass! Far better than those who've failed or dropped out along the way. It does mean something, even though she may not think that at the moment.

She PASSED as opposed to failing - so she did well - if you look at it that way.
Her 3 years were not wasted.
''A glass half full etc..''

Even if she did, I think there would need to be some careful research about the extent to which a postgrad degree would mitigate a third at undergraduate level.

As mentioned above, I got a first in my degree after poor A level results. Fact was that for many big graduate schemes that are selective the A levels automatically ruled me out. The degree didn’t even come into it.

Thankfully, there are still plenty of employees and schemes that recruit less rigidly, but I’d be wary of undertaking more study if the only reason is to ‘upgrade’ the degree.

OP's daughter can also forget about doing a Masters. Unsurprisingly, most ask for a 2.1 minimum with the highly competitive asking for a first.

In addition to @Piggywaspushed's point, this also is not true @LondonPapa. No Masters course in England asks for a First as a minimum requirement. Of course it might give you an edge to have one, but nowhere is it a listed requirement.

Yes - this should be picked up but some universities seem to be throwing out the rule book and justifying it as ‘exceptional’. If only they would work with their staff to avoid further action.

In addition to @Piggywaspushed's point, this also is not true@LondonPapa. No Masters course in England asks for a First as a minimum requirement. Of course it might give you an edge to have one, but nowhere is it a listed requirement.

I was looking at postgraduate courses last week and feel sure that I DID see (think it was Oxbridge) masters requiring a first. Annoyingly, I can't remember what the hell it was so can't go back and double check. 🔫 🔫🔫

Don’t most university’s have a profiling up system? Ie if you had a mean average of 57 they’d round you up to a 2:1, that’s how it was at my redbrick university. There was a real aversion to giving people low marks unless absolutely unavoidable.

the appeal process is a costly one and unlikely to get anywhere and might just long out the heartbreak. But she may be able to get it that she can redo her final year, however extenuating circumstances normally need to be presented in advance. From recollection though, some Universities don’t let you redo final year

Is she in humanities? @DandelionBurdockAndGin

A 45 yr old with loads of experience wouldn’t put their degree classification on their cv anyway
Its been completely superseded by their experience.
Relevant experience is all employers are interested in.( The longer the better if the degree isn’t 1st or 2:1 )
However if you do a biology degree but spend 24 years working in finance then decide to work in a lab I’d be looking at that degree classification.

Most require a minimum 2:1.
Cambridge for example on some degrees need 2:1 minimum.
Just like you need minimum gcse grades for A levels.
However you can go in as a mature student with lots of relevant experience with less.
It all depends, as always, who you’re up against.

If you are a recent graduate, and you don't mention your degree classification on your CV, then anyone reading it will know you've got a third or an Ordinary degree.

It takes a really brave person to post on this board asking why their DD is graduating with a third from her RG university. From some of the responses her life is clearly over and if someone offers examples of people who are now earning good salaries doing interesting jobs having graduated with a third they are accused of being stuck in the past because 'those are the facts.' OP - your daughters transcript will give her the information she needs. If she was hoping for a 2:2 but didn't make it then I would look at the mark for her dissertation. Her health has been up and down but she has still managed to complete and this is great. Time to move on - volunteering is a good plan and then some careers advice as to how she might move forward.

At A-level and below you can get supriseingly far with a good memory but limited understanding, espesaly in coursework. Whereas at university you need to be able to evaluate evidence and draw your own conclusions. It's a different type of learning, that she should have been supported to move towards during 6th form, buy maybe missed out on with all the disruption.

Oxbridge functions slightly differently, to be fair. You can't actually do an MA at either, and you can't do an MSc at Cambridge. It all links into the way that their undergraduate degrees are considered the equivalent of those qualifications already (and you can apply automatically some years after leaving with your under-graduate degree). The majority of post-grads at Oxbridge are doing MPhils; whether some of those ask for Firsts I don't know, maybe they do, but they aren't, strictly speaking, Masters degrees in the way that most of us use that term.

Aww OP. Words of wisdom? From experience of a close friend who got a 3rd and was gutted. Lots of tlc, if you’re off or can get an early finish/ day off, see if you can take her out for a walk, a coffee at her favourite cafe, the cinema, anything to take her mind off.

She is going to be really sad and will be analysing what went wrong so might need a bit of space to wallow and be upset. If she’s not up to going out, favourite drinks/snacks and/or movies or activities might help.

Also, lots of support and reassurance from you. See if you can help your DD reframe the situation. Instead of her thinking she’s done terribly, what she has done is achieve a degree despite it being a struggle. She could have dropped out but she persevered. Those are qualities that future employers will value.

My friend got a third and is now in a highly successful career. A degree shows you can study and understand things at a higher level. They are very useful to have but are most definitely not the be all and end all.

A talk with her tutor/s may help once she’s had time to process the disappointment and had the result breakdown. If there is anything she feels is grossly unfair maybe she can challenge it appropriately but if it all looks to be fair feedback and she has a third, she still has a degree.

I can honestly say that I and my friend have only ever been asked to demonstrate we have a degree, I’ve never been asked the degree class.

There are so many expectations set regarding going to uni and having to get a 2:1 or a 1st to be successful but it it not the case.

I really hope she is feeling better soon.

@ValerieGoldberg
I can honestly say that I and my friend have only ever been asked to demonstrate we have a degree, I’ve never been asked the degree class

How is it possible to demonstrate you have a degree without revealing the classification?

When did you graduate? A suspect lot of the posters saying they haven't revealed their degree classification graduated a while ago.

@IdSell My point is that they just ask if you have a degree, they don’t specify what class of degree. In my job I write/review job descriptions in various roles and we only ever ask for a degree or post grad degree, we never say you need at least a 2:1 degree.

From some of the responses her life is clearly over and if someone offers examples of people who are now earning good salaries doing interesting jobs having graduated with a third they are accused of being stuck in the past because 'those are the facts.'

I don’t understand why these posters have commented. Some doors will be closed, yes. That is indeed factual. But many will be open and people succeed without excelling at university. This is also factual, and far more useful for the op and her daughter to focus on than what is not possible.

I couldn’t apply for certain graduate schemes because of my grades, but others were open. In the end I didn’t join a grad scheme at all and have still done well.

Yes the most successful people I know either did apprenticeships or just worked their way up without school... I know a lot of people unemployed or minimum wage with degrees.

Having done uni myself I wouldn't greatly recommend it... not as a career path, its more something to do if your passionate about something. There was even a word for uni students when I was there its 'slackademic' (basically staying in school too avoid having to join the actual 'workforce').

If you mean my DD she hoping to get on a sort of hybrid area - she can end up with BA/BSc from her course- so mix of lab/fields work and essays so hopefully enough flexibility to find her strengths it's more concern about attitude we've seen from her.