How did DD get a third? Anyone who works at uni know?

[greensofas]

Bright DD, AAB at a level (covid results but all essays marked at that level) got her Russell group uni of choice in a topic she had studied at A level. Worked hard at uni, tons of library time and going to lectures/study groups. Has struggled all the way through with ups and downs in results even though she has enjoyed subject. In final year found it all very hard and ended up on antidepressants and therapy. Still worked like a Trojan though (competitive with herself)
Just graduated with a third. I know she is depressed with result and after googling and coming on mumsnet, everyone seems to say 'only the lowest get thirds these days' or 'only the ones that didn't even try'
She doesn't seem to be either of those things. I feel so sad for her. Any advice or words or wisdom?

She may appeal ref her illness but even then, they may not be able to up her class.

Uni and good degree classifications don't relate to A levels, just like good Alevel grades dont relate to GCSEs. Each qual if a step change from the lalast. And they don't relate to effort either.

Honestly though, getting a third won't make the blindest bit of difference, stop analysing it. She will get a job, she will do well, life goes on. At some stage she may wish to read a masters which then overrides her bachelors if that's something she wants to do. Noone should be ashamed of graduating. Congrats to your DD.

Haven’t read all comments but if you do show your daughter the support on here, here is my experience:

Firstly, per name change I cocked up my A levels. Managed to get onto preferred uni course because by some fluke the course I wanted to do wasn’t popular so didn’t require high grades. But I know the shame and disappointment VERY well. And my A levels meant that I couldn’t get on some grad schemes - the same schemes that will be picky about degree classification - but it didn’t matter at all for others. I went on to get a first at uni and have a decent career.

Secondly, degree classification is not the final word on intellectual ability and your daughter needs to know this. My sister, who is very intelligent (far more so than many people who outperformed her at university), didn’t even pass her course. She was there, she did all the work, but it was all wrong and she got a sort of certificate of completion/attendance instead. Something about academic study really did not fit. She is much better out in the world of work.

Oddly this happened to a friend of mine. He's a low level genius and did maths at a Russell group uni. Got As in Maths, Further Maths and Physics A-level (highest you could get then). Studied hard, came out of the final year exams confident. But he got a 3rd. Almost all of his grade was dependent on final exams in third year rather than coursework but he still has no idea how it happened. Hes gone on to do well in life. We graduated 10 years ago and he works in London for an insurance firm and is paid very well

Does she have any work experience? Even part time jobs?

On a practical level that is the best thing she can do now is have other experience on her CV. If the job description requires a degree she can tick that box but she then has to meet other requirements. Graduate type schemes are out so she needs to stand out among entry level competitors.

I shortlist for these roles and there's often little in between candidates so it comes down to those who can demonstrate that have done other things that fit the job description.

She'll still be entitled to use the careers service at her uni so she should do this and get working, paid or otherwise.

Personally I'd knock traveling on the head for a few months or do a couple of shorter trips between jobs or placements.

A third she'll overcome, especially in a strong jobs market. Leave it six to 12 months and she has a poor degree and a big gap for travelling, that says flakey (sorry) and we may well be in a recession. Doing well in a workplace now will help her self esteem and future career.

Eh? That’s true about graduate schemes such as Deloitte etc but it certainly is not true about teaching. You can have a third and complete teacher training through all routes except ‘teachfirst’ (but I think this might now be a third if you fit other criteria).

’Teachfirst’ graduate scheme many moons ago tried to implement ‘must have 2.:1’ to ‘raise educational standards’ but that was short lived and died a death pretty quickly and reverted to 2:2 (which is still higher than other teaching routes such as PGCE and SCITT) where you most definitely can have a third.

Conscientious and competitive with herself in a friendship group who study hard rings some warnings for me with MH. I teach post grad and some of those who could be the best students get themselves tied up in anxiety and perfectionism and fail to submit or procrastinate so long the final assignment is rushed.
does she have therapy for her MH? I’d suggest she does get a therapist and discuss with them as this could be an issue going forward in life.

I've been asked. And every job I've got, I've had to provide my degree certificate to HR as part of the pre-employment checks.
I'd say someone with a 3rd would be better off writing it off completely and going down a different route to employment - via an apprenticeship for example.

One of my cousins got a third from a top 40 university and is probably the most successful (certainly income-wise) of our generation in the extended family (there are a lot of us).

We rarely employ anyone without a first in my field although a 2:1 is the minimum.

I hope that employers go easy on students affected by covid. I know a lot of young people who had at least one year when their mental health was very poor. It feels like a lot of the 2020 freshers found their second year especially tough.

I am sorry your daughter feel so bad, I also know it is hard for you to see your child suffering when you know she tried her best.
Since they were very small we told our kids to give their absolute best but that life wasn't fair and sometimes your best is just not good enough, all you can do is try. Let her have a good cry, and then make her see that unlike a lot of student she finished her degree in a subject she actually still love and be proud of it. Also make her travel somewhere (to put everything back into perspective) preferably in countries were education is not a priority.

If I'm working this out right OP her A level grades were teacher assessed grades. Is that right? In which case she may have been over rewarded and therefore a bit out of her depth on the course. I imagine she won't be the only one in this situation.

I'm a lecturer and secretary to our exam board so I see a lot of degree classifications. We don't give many thirds at all. Those who do get thirds are pretty much always those who have struggled for one reason or another - poor English, health problems (physical or mental, more often mental), difficult personal circumstances, or just not gelling with the course and finding it all a bit of an ordeal. It's very very rarely due to lack of ability or effort, there's usually something else going on.

We have big student cohorts but these are usually the students who are known to us because of their struggles (of whatever nature) and often we're delighted to see them get across the line and leave with a piece of paper rather than nothing.

We don't give many thirds at this time of year as students with that profile would typically have some resits to do in August.

It is worth reviewing her results and seeing if any resits would improve her classification or if there's anything she thinks is out of line - at my institution they can't question the marking but can request a clerical review in case something has been missed.

I suspect your DD has shown huge resilience and perseverance to complete her degree, possibly against a bigger struggle than she has let on. She should be really really proud of herself.

When I did my PGCE I needed a 2:1 minimum. I think it depends on the subject. They are so short of maths teachers they'll take anyone!

It’s maybe not quite as easy as some people make
out. She went to a rigorous university, all the people in her year will have been academically strong. Quite a number of them will have dropped out or failed before the end of the course. Some of those unis also provide a lot less support than others, less accommodations for ill health etc. it’s harder to get high marks at some establishments. I would agree that if she is aiming for a career that needs top marks she could do a postgrad. They’re aren’t that many where it matters though. Most employers ultimately judge on how good you are at the job which is seldom directly related to exam marks

I haven't read all the comments, but there is a difference studying at A- level to degree level.
Maybe her mental health is a result of struggling with the workload/ level expected?

All you can do now is support her. She's finished the course, that's a huge achievement.
She's young, bright with good A levels. Just give her time to get better, find her feet again and move on.

At degree level it's possible to attend all the lectures, but not manage to link the material to the specific question in the exam.

Of course, she'll have been hoping fir a 2:2, but it's an achievement in itself that she's finished the course. She could have dropped out when she got depressed. While some graduating recruters look for high grades, for others, they're most interested in people with staying poker. The actual grade doesn't matter. She should just put on her CV that she has the qualification - only give the grade if they ask.

If you want to go for a graduate scheme, you need a 2.1 for most. Some will let you in with a 2.2 but most require a 2.1 minimum. Some ultra competitive ones ask for a first.

OP's daughter can also forget about doing a Masters. Unsurprisingly, most ask for a 2.1 minimum with the highly competitive asking for a first.

Professionally speaking, she is limited to going the hard way around. That, I'm sure, will be a lot of fun. Personally, I wouldn't even say I have a degree if I got a third.

She might be in the lowest 10%, but she's still got a degree, which puts her academically above plenty of others. That said, I'd remind her that once she has secured that first job, that's what employers will look at on the CV. For that she needs the right attitude, willingness to work, and confidence (which will be the hardest thing right now, understandably).

Whenever I've hired I've looked at what people have actually done in their working life - even down to Saturday jobs for entry level. Degrees are great, but unless they're something like medical, legal etc, practical experience in the 'real world' wins out for me every time.

Did she had everything in? I got a third- my marks were more at a 2:1/2.2 level but I had a breakdown over my dissertation- they agreed to let me through without it but the max I could get then was a third. I still kick myself sometimes but noone has ever asked what degree it's always been enough that I had one.

So when you’re employing a 45 year old with a postgrad and loads of experience and excellent references you’d turn them down because they didn’t get a 2:1? I‘m not sure I believe you.

My husband got a third. He admits himself he tossed it off. He's now an aircraft engineer at a decent rank in the military. He joined up and did all his quals through them. He just was too immature for uni. He regrets it still. But has done well.

I've never been asked to evidence my degree results for jobs, just my vocational qualifications (NVQs, etc). It seems to me that for the sorts of roles I've gone for, all I would need to have done is SAY I've got a degree, not actually hold one.

I knew a couple of people who got onto postgrad teaching training with only an ordinary degree, not honours. I'm in Scotland and this was back in the early noughties so things might have changed since then.

Guy who was in my uni year graduated with a third. He recorded this on his CV as a first and was apparently never asked to prove it.

I did the CELTA qualification. I don't think having a degree was mandatory to do the course but it is to teach in certain countries, so your daughter now has that (they won't care about the classification).

Of course they do.

Staff have results from assessments in years 2 to so on. Then year 3, plus dissertations etc.

I suspect my posts are being read and responded to out of the context in which they were originally written.

Which was this…

Staff will literally do anything to push students through to a 2:2

The apparent assertion that staff will do anything to ensure an ensure a student gets at least a 2:2. They won’t do anything because unless they work out a student’s averages, they won’t know how a student is performing overall until the exam board at the end of the year. Nobody I know, including me, has ever admitted to doing that other than for their own personal tutees or project students. I, and I am sure others, mark the piece of work in front of them on its own merits. They will not manipulate the marks to ensure a minimum 2:2 average overall.

A degree is a degree. Well done to your daughter, OP