How did DD get a third? Anyone who works at uni know?

[greensofas]

Bright DD, AAB at a level (covid results but all essays marked at that level) got her Russell group uni of choice in a topic she had studied at A level. Worked hard at uni, tons of library time and going to lectures/study groups. Has struggled all the way through with ups and downs in results even though she has enjoyed subject. In final year found it all very hard and ended up on antidepressants and therapy. Still worked like a Trojan though (competitive with herself)
Just graduated with a third. I know she is depressed with result and after googling and coming on mumsnet, everyone seems to say 'only the lowest get thirds these days' or 'only the ones that didn't even try'
She doesn't seem to be either of those things. I feel so sad for her. Any advice or words or wisdom?

My thoughts as well.

whether OP’s DD might be in such a situation (ADHD in women/girls, especially intelligent ones, is extremely underdiagnosed, for example), I really hope she’s getting help for her MH issues.

Apart from that:

Many people with below average grades / degrees do go on to have very good careers.

a good friend of mine barely graduated law school.
But he still passed the bar and is really extremely successful nowadays.
The beginning was much harder than it would have been with better grades afaik. It required a lot of grit, hard work and obviously also some luck.

But most employers apparently stopped caring after his first few jobs.

We have a system of academic mentoring at my uni. Students have the same tutor (leaving/retirement notwithstanding) for their whole time at uni and we get their updated grade profile at the end of each semester. Where there are issues we invite them in for a chat and signpost them to services (e.g. academic writing courses, student counselling) than can help. So yes, we absolutely do know when a student is struggling.

I tend to agree with a previous poster. I suspect you don’t have the whole story. To get a 3rd almost requires active disengagement, and there is possibly a pattern of poor attendance, late coursework (therefore capped at the pass mark), resits (also capped), and poor engagement with the learning materials.

If she did not declare significant mental health problems but has strong evidence (e.g. dr/hospital appointments, tutor notes of discussions, prescriptions, even text conversations from her to you about her mental health - everything that builds up a profile of significant distress, then it may be possible to appeal the award. It won’t get her a higher grade but they may allow her to resit the year without penalty.

I disagree that you only get a third if you 'didn't even try'. If you don't try at all then you don't get a degree - degrees are hard!

Getting a 2:1 isn't easy in most subjects at a Russell group uni, that's why it's worth something. She will still be able to get jobs etc with a third, it's still a degree.

I'd get a breakdown of how it was marked. It might be possible to upgrade to a 2:2 if one area of marking is very borderline.

I'd also encourage her (for the future) to get help when she realises she's struggling - extra tuition, for example

I would suggest she gets a job for a year, earns as much as she can, and has a think about what she wants to do in the future

I wouldn't think that travelling is a good idea at this stage. Better to get her next few years mapped out , plans made etc

As others have said, she's got an honours degree so definitely not the end of the world.
You say she's had ongoing health issues, did she request mitigating circumstances to be taken into account, especially if flare-ups coincided with missed assessments or lower grades. It would be worth her having a conversation with the personal tutor or student services.
In terms of what to do next etc she should talk to the uni careers service folks. They'll have a good idea of possible pathways etc.

A third may well feel like a big disappointment to her after she's tried so hard. But to put it in context, she has a degree from a good university, which is something a lot of people don't have. Even if she had results in the lower end of her class, most people don't have any degree from a Russell Group university. And she's achieved that while having health difficulties.

She's still got employment and study options available to her, but right now I think she's probably best focusing on her mental well-being and restoring her confidence. Some time out travelling sounds like it could be good for her.

She is obviously a very bright girl showing with her a level results. How disappointing. Can she speak with her tutor to identify where it went wrong. Could she retake? Was she struggling in her first year or was it a gradual decline?

Depending on the jobs she chooses to apply for, she'll likely never have to show her certificate! My DH scraped a 2:2 at uni after repeating his entire 2nd year. He now has a decent career in one of Europe's biggest banks. Not once have they asked to see his certificate m. He just put his degree on his CV, not the result.

I'm a civil servant in an international organisation and did have to show mine because I sat a competitive entrance exam. But my brother and my sister have also never been asked to show their certificates.

I agree with others here - I'd stop with the studying and get some work experience. After a while that's all employers are interested in anyway.

That very much depends on the employer. My DD did a graduate training programme - she had to have a 2:1 minimum. That’s common in her career. To do a PGCE many places ask for a 2:1.

I got a third. It's on my cv that I have a degree with no grade mentioned. I am rarely asked about it and I never tell people. I have done well but could have done this without a degree. What I will say is the only graduate scheme I did apply for were not bothered by this at all.

I'd take the suggestion of PP and get a masters in the best module if she can put the work in now and turn it around. If not, get a job and work really hard to progress.

It will mean SOME typical graduate entry schemes are closed to her but there is more to life than big blue chips and the civil service. I've often thought they lose out on a lot of good candidates by being so obsessive about class of degree, in the case of the civil service STAR, and pretty much ignoring anything else. If she's feeling up to it she might want to have a chat with her uni careers service who might be able to give her some advice, many provide support after graduation.

If she could do a TEFL course that would very much widen the number of countries where she could find a reasonably paid post if she wanted to teach, and depending on her subject she might find she could get accepted on a postgraduate teaching course that has fees and a small amount for living costs. Doing a PGCE or another postgraduate qualification will give her a higher qualification than a bachelor's.

I hope she enjoys her time outside the UK, you never know what opportunities might come her way as a result.

However, I would add that I got a third because although I handed every half arsed essay in, I didn't go to a single lecture in my third year and about three in the second year. I would suggest that your DD is hiding something.

She might just have been on a course/ doing a subject she wasn't that suited to. In which case, well done to her for getting through it. I'm surprised she didn't realise after second year results that this was a likely option, but maybe she's found the third year much harder.

Practically, I don't think there's a lot of difference between a 2:2 and a third. I know of schemes etc where you have to have a 2:1 or above and I know of ones where you have to have a degree. I'm not really aware of any where you have to have a 2:2 or above, though there might be some.

I suspect that if she was studying all the times she said she was then it was that she had very poor study technique and nobody picked it up and helped her.
Did she ever go and ask for support or feedback on the modules she did badly on?

Hi OP. I got a third. I’ll tell you why I got mine. I did well at school and decided to do a degree in science.
I struggled from the get go (and not as a previous poster so kindly put things because I have a ‘deficiency’). The work was tough, I found the leap from a-level to degree difficult. My plan was to leave after my first year but my parents talked me into staying. I failed a couple of exams and at that time in my uni if you had to do a resit your mark was capped at 40% or a third grade regardless of how well you did.
This pattern continued for year2, I was unhappy and struggled but stayed. My third year I really tried and even though I met regularly with my tutor who assured me my dissertation was going well when I got my results he’d given me a low mark and my resits had dragged my average down.
Im now almost 40, and although I’m not a practical scientist I have a job related to the subject that I enjoy and the wage is decent and yes they asked if I had a degree in a relevant subject but in the almost 20 years I have been in jobs/looking for jobs I’ve never been asked my grade. Feel free to message me if you want a chat.

Perhaps the course she was on was more exam focused and she was previously better at essays or coursework? I will echo what everyone else has said, a Third is not the end of her life or prospects and it's important she knows this. She has a degree from a Russell Group uni and she can still do much. Most people these days don't even use their degree unless they enter into a professional career or specific grad recruitment scheme.

I would just keep emphasising to her that life is long and full of surprises and opportunities and although she may feel like it's the end of the world now, in a few years her uni grades will barely matter as it will be her job performance and previous experience that gets her places. Or she can even start something on her own. It sounds like she struggled a lot through circumstances outside of her control and should be proud of herself for finishing her degree.

once she’s better I know people who worked as temps in civil service roles who then worked their way up to equivalent fast stream roles. Takes longer, but they were able to shine as a lot of jobs don’t require the same skills as study and my friend (also AAA a-level) was able to show that he had those skills in abundance. Civil service (once you are in) is also a great employer for not looking at degrees - lots of people don’t have them.

I will say that some universities are more supportive than others and sadly some Russel groups with their AAA students, in my experience, just write people off if they can’t hack it - you can either study entirely on your own effectively or you can’t.

i know someone who left top 10 russel group in first year after failing 6 of 8 exams to go to City to graduate with a First (same subject). He said the support /teaching was better… and it was more student focused (my uni frequently gave you an exam that had no resemblance to past papers or the question sheets from lectures that you just had to work out there and then in an effort to test “real understanding”. Not sure how effective this was.)

after her pause and travel, I’d really suggest temping. She will get rejected from jobs a lot automatically (people with first’s do too) but being in a
work environment with a lot of people from different backgrounds will help her see the areas where she does shine.

If she was hoping to get a 2:2 that shows that realistically she knew there was a good chance of getting a third, as that's only one grade below a 2:2.

It sounds like her mental health issues unfortunately had a negative impact on her studies. Nevertheless, she was brave to keep going and complete the course. I won't lie and say it won't matter when she comes to job applications. The first one will be hard, but once she has some experience her degree classification will matter less and less. I would advise her to look at employers that are a bit more gentle in how they approach job hunters, like local government, the Education sector and possibly the NHS if anything appeals. She shouldn't waste her time and hurt her self esteem by applying for graduate schemes as they will almost invariably ask for a 2:1 or at best at 2:2. She could also consider a stint of voluntary work to increase her confidence and get some useful skills on her CV.

Presumably she came from a very wealthy background with parents who could fund a whole second degree?
That’s really not an option for most people.

If she was depressed that could hugely affect her grade for several reasons. One might be that she spends a lot of time in the library without actually doing focused work. It feels like working as you are in a study area, but I used to see people hang out the library all day long and only actually do about 1 or 2 hours focused study.

Another very likely reason is medication. A lot of antidepressants can make you really sluggish and forgetful. Your brain just won't make the agile leaps it needs ot make to be effective academically. I had to drop out of a post grad course I was more than capable of doing because my brain was so slow and wooly.

Remind her she has a degree in her chosen subject. That's all people need to know. She passed and is now a BA or BSc HONS (the lower grade is without honours - just a pass) in her subject. Remind her she did brilliantly to get through despite her illness, as a huge number of people drop out and don;t get through at all if they suffer mental illness.

Make sure she celebrates properly, with photos of her graduating and a family meal, even if she wants to keep it low key.

Unless she had her heart set on a masters, she can now go out into the world and start working. No one will know or care.

I got a 2:2, I was too focused on the party aspects of uni and thought I could bluff my way through like I had at school. When I applied for graduate schemes I was rejected from every single one within about 5 minutes of applying which was depressing, so the classification obviously does matter to some companies, but once you’ve got a few years work experience no one asks for the classification any more.

I did TEFL and I can’t recommend it really, when I came back to the UK I had to start at the bottom with entry level jobs, so I just set myself back a few years. Employers just see it as you’ve been having an extended holiday, which is true really.

I’d recommend applying to smaller companies who will have more leeway over accepting someone with a 3rd over bigger companies that will have strict criteria they can’t amend for the right candidate and she’ll have to start at the bottom and work up rather than the leg up a graduate scheme would’ve given her but in a few years it will all be forgotten.

What is the spread of marks?
40% for a module or assignment often means capped due to late submission.
0% could mean no submission or cheating/plagiarism.

If it was a mix of 35%, 50% etc , this is different.

Essentially did she genuinely academically struggle with the course, or did she not try as hard as she could?

At the end of the day it's just a grade.
Many people don't even look at grades anymore.

I'd be taken on someone at face value not their grade.

@Totaly that is an extremely offensive word

This isn't really true many graduate jobs and all grad schemes will ask.

It's not the end of the world op though I appreciate she's gutted now.

I agree with others get lots of other things on her CV to minimise it's impact and she'll be absolutely fine. It's just one of those things and can't be helped now.