How did DD get a third? Anyone who works at uni know?

[greensofas]

Bright DD, AAB at a level (covid results but all essays marked at that level) got her Russell group uni of choice in a topic she had studied at A level. Worked hard at uni, tons of library time and going to lectures/study groups. Has struggled all the way through with ups and downs in results even though she has enjoyed subject. In final year found it all very hard and ended up on antidepressants and therapy. Still worked like a Trojan though (competitive with herself)
Just graduated with a third. I know she is depressed with result and after googling and coming on mumsnet, everyone seems to say 'only the lowest get thirds these days' or 'only the ones that didn't even try'
She doesn't seem to be either of those things. I feel so sad for her. Any advice or words or wisdom?

I failed my honours year so graduated with an ordinary degree and have only once been asked about it in an interview, 15 years after I graduated. Looking back I can see I should have never went back for 4th year (Scottish uni) and I spent most of my 3rd year saying I wasn’t going back but I didn’t know what else to do and all my friends were going back so I figured I might as well.

I don’t work in the field I studied but I got an entry level admin job with a major construction firm within months of graduating, moved into insurance and now work in property. I hold 2 professional qualifications and am a member of 2 professional bodies. It absolutely worked out ok for me although I know my mum was frantic with worry at the time.

Why do I get the impression that you are more disappointed for her, than she is......🙄

I work in HE and we absolutely don’t want to dish out thirds as it absolutely screws us in our metrics. Staff will literally do anything to push students through to a 2:2.

I don’t think she’s been entirely honest about how bad things have been. It’s very hard to end up with a third these days. Usually it’s agreed that it’s better to not complete and students start again sometime later when whatever the issue is has been addresses (wrong subject, health, learning difference etc).

But it’s done. And it absolutely isn’t the end of the world. One option, if she wants to continue to study one day, is to transfer the credit to the OU and improve upon the classification (if she finds it necessary for what she wants to do).

Whilst I love HE and absolutely recommend a university education for most-the truth is that my friends who didn’t go have almost universally out-earned those that did. So if financial success is a marker it really won’t matter. I subscribe to the idea that learning is more important than earning, but it’s not everyone’s motivation.

Was it only her third year that counted? Mine was 50/50 second and third year which I think is unusual. It gave me a much better idea of what I needed to do in my final year. My OH was 25/75. I do think it’s very stressful if it’s all on one years results, especially as the exams can be crammed into a very short time period.

She has a degree, so big congratulations to her.
It was tough at times, but she saw it through- well done!

Staff will literally do anything to push students through to a 2:2

Just how do they do that? Most staff won’t have a clue whether or not a particular student is heading for a third or a 2.2 at graduation.

Why wouldn't they have a clue?

(And as to how, well, obviously if you're responsible for a student who is struggling you work to get them extra support; you find out whether there's some reason they are finding things hard; you see if there's anything that you can do to help them achieve their potential. That's ... teaching?)

Marks are visible across all modules to staff, it’s discussed in tutorials - students are very clear what is required to achieve a first, 2:1 etc.l and where they benchmark. We have very few exams now, only really where professional accreditation requires it so it’s very obvious how a students marks are accumulating module by module, especially where we have programmes on block teaching as results are after every 7 weeks of teaching rather than end of year.

In the first year whilst you only have to pass it’s usually pretty clear who is struggling and early interventions are put in place. We’ve got targets my ethnicity (to reduce the attainment gap for BAME students), targets by disability, targets by programme. Absolutely everything possible is done to get completions at 2:2 and above. Quite frankly we can’t afford thirds. So whilst there’s always some, they aren’t a sudden shock, we don’t have “finals” any more to fail at.

OK hard truth she is right to be gutted most graduates would not be happy with a third but she has to take into account her struggles with mental health . On plus side she has a degree. Some employers won't ask for classification. One of the most competent people I know got a 3rd (they told me privately) they are amazing at their job and one of the strongest employees who everyone goes to for work advice.

I’m not in UK, but here we have exam boards (and pre-exam boards) where all students’ results are discussed prior to results being released.

Why wouldn't they have a clue?

Because, they likely haven’t got the time or the inclination to keep a tally of all the marks for all the students they teach over all the modules those students take over a period of two or three years.

The only exception that I can think of, at this time of night, are personal tutors who will monitor the progress of their personal tutees.

for all the modules, not over all the modules.

It’s late.

Not where I work. Student progression is constantly monitored. It’s an actual target for staff. Students not on course for a good degree are highlighted early and offered additional support.

I’m not in UK, but here we have exam boards (and pre-exam boards) where all students’ results are discussed prior to results being released

It’s the same in the UK. A borderline student will be granted a higher degree classification, but only if they meet strict criteria. It isn’t a subjective process.

Firstly it’s not the end of the world, every child’s been through so much what with the extra stress and strain the pandemic put on them. I’d sit down and talk to her see what she wants to do. Ask her if she wants to make appointment at university and speak to service’s regarding how difficult she’s found it especially with her mental health problems and covid. Maybe they could suggest resitting if that is what she wants to do. My son really struggled because of family death and having long covid he was just sleeping all the time. He get up go to uni and come home and sleep he’d also sleep all weekend. We had to take him down to London for treatment.
So try to reassure your daughter and let her know you know she’s tried. Find out if there is anything in mind what she wants to do and maybe she could do a apprenticeship with university involved and still get her degree and better grade.
The extra time my son got made all the difference. It doesn’t hurt to ask but you need to make sure she’s up for the fight because it’s not easy for them. My son’s friends had moved on to employment and earning and he no longer had a group of friends from day one, but he soon made friends, but it wasn’t easy he struggled and we got him tutors to help him that really aren’t that expensive. They just helped in certain areas like the maths involved in engineering. When he struggled we involved a different tutor in a different area of his subject.
There is so much pressure put on university adults to do well but it’s been a difficult few years and it’s really effected so many young minds. She may want to take some time away and come back after a break. Try to get her to see this as a positive and review everything and refocus on what she really wants to do.
I really wish your daughter the best and know she’ll find her path one way or the other. Uni isn’t the end it’s actually just the start. She needs to know that. Some people learning comes very easily others have to work extremely hard to even get low grade’s.. We are all different and dealing with different problems that half of the time we don’t share with our parents until it’s at crisis level.

my heart goes out to you I know how you feel for your daughter you just want to help and put this right if you can. We all want the very best for our children. I wish you all the luck in the world and I promise one day you will look back on this and think why were we so worried.
best wishes

Students not on course for a good degree are highlighted early and offered additional support

Yes, but my experience, the monitoring of an individual student’s performance is their personal tutor’s responsibility, not staff in general.

They might not ask, but we all know if you got a first or a 2:1 you put it on your CV, so if your classification isn't on there it's assumed you got a 2:2 or 3rd I'm afraid.

@greensofas Please don't think or let her believe it is the end of the world.

When I did my 'A' levels I was one of the two top students in the school and were always being compared and sort of encouraged to compete by our peers and teachers. We got some of the best results in the district and duly went off to our different Unis. She got a third in Mathematics, I got a 2:2 in Chemical Engineering and thought it was the end of the world.

it is incredibly hard to get a third and means that she underperformed throughout her entire time at uni - sorry but she is either lying to you or to herself …

No employer has requested my degree grade

Only to view my original degree certificate

Suggest she starts applying for jobs

A degree should still open opportunities & doors

Very untrue I’m afraid

I totally sympathise with her mental health struggles, I had a nervous breakdown in 3rd year it was incredibly stressful, not just that the work was difficult and complex in itself, but on top of that things like constantly having multiple deadlines in one week, things going wrong with programs (usually the night before deadline!), completely forgetting things and then people making you feel stupid for asking for help/reminders and then consequently feeling isolated, other commitments taking up time and adding to the big pile of stress too, I could go on.

All of that and what did it get me? Not a career.
A nice mark on my CV that doesn't really mean anything because most other careers want specific degrees, not the fact that you have one in the first place (for some specialist jobs yes that's understandable). But otherwise, the point I'm trying to make is, yes it is very disappointing and she will be feeling, for want of a better word, really shit about it. But in today's world, it really doesn't even matter that much as it doesn't guarantee you a job over someone without one whatsoever. At the end of the day, it isn't the end of the world.

However, the fact she has a degree is an achievement, no matter how high it is, and she should be proud of herself for sticking it out til the end and achieving it when many others would have given up if they had gone through the mental health struggles that she has. Try to get her to see it like that, and hopefully she will feel a little better. ❤️

But it wasn't of course.....
I joined the TA and worked for a few months then went backpacking in Oz I came back and worked again for a year and then ended up doing a masters and was invited to stay on for a PhD, met my DW and then graduated and started my career at around 30. Ten years later I am at the top of my particular niche, well known in the industry and getting well paid to do a job I find very interesting and rewarding.

She will be fine, its not a race

A third is obviously not great, however even just looking at the responses here it's clear whether your classification is relevant or not varies.

You haven't specified what her degree is in, however maybe consider revealing it, there may be a path through that people can help with.

The door has closed on some things, graduate programmes of course will not be an option now, some masters are also now closed off. However perhaps she can mask the degree by gaining experience in her field.

So for example, I an an architect, we do not have graduate programmes and actually as we study for 6 years our degree quickly become irrelevant as we soon move onto a higher qualification and end with a very dry professional qualification a compulsory year of work experience in the middle is possible to work through regardless of degree classification I suspect etc. However, return to uni after for the next 2 years will will restricted as to which uni you can attend etc. All not the end of the world.

Her degree will define her now, but once she is at the nect stage whether that is in education or work it will become less and less important.

What are your daughters career aspirations? Could she for example live at home and offer herself for free as work experience, fill up her cv with reputable companies etc?

She will be fine however she has set herself up to have a trickier next step, how she plays that is vital.