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Higher education

Talk to other parents whose children are preparing for university on our Higher Education forum.

DD is prioritising student satisfaction so ruling out a lot of RG unis

253 replies

Satisfiedstudent · 11/05/2023 12:14

My DD thinks student satisfaction is one of the most important factors in university decision-making so she is ruling out a lot of the top universities. She says most of the Russell Group unis are very poorly rated and whenever I suggest somewhere (Cardiff, Birmingham…. ) she whips out the Sunday Times guide book my mum bought her and promptly dismisses it. My DH thinks this is reasonable as a happy student is more likely to do well but I am not so sure that student satisfaction is the be all and end all and wonder what you all think?

OP posts:
gogogoji · 12/05/2023 19:03

Righthandman · 11/05/2023 12:28

Has she looked at St Andrews? No, it's not Russell Group, but it's performing as well or better than Oxbridge, which aren't Russell Group either. And it always does really well on student satisfaction too.

O&C are Russell Group. But it's just a big marketing group that unis pay to belong to

Catspyjamas17 · 12/05/2023 19:05

Piggywaspushed · 12/05/2023 19:00

I offered no value judgement.

Scottish students often commute too, by the way.

Yes, because they don't pay tuition fees in Scotland and would have to if they travelled out of Scotland.

Whereas English students pay the same fees wherever.

gogogoji · 12/05/2023 19:06

CurlewKate · 11/05/2023 13:24

@Righthandman I'm really surprised St Andrews isn't Russell Group! It does load of research so I thought it would qualify.

RG is not a quality measuring group. It is a consortium of large research based unis. Many top unis that are smaller like StA & Bath are not RG because they are not large research unis. People need to wise up. Unis pay to join and belong. It is not a sign of excellence. Many RG unis are very average

Piggywaspushed · 12/05/2023 19:19

Catspyjamas17 · 12/05/2023 19:05

Yes, because they don't pay tuition fees in Scotland and would have to if they travelled out of Scotland.

Whereas English students pay the same fees wherever.

It's not new.

Really not sure what you are arguing about. I just was musing, given the amount of discussion others were having.

boys3 · 12/05/2023 19:32

Piggywaspushed · 12/05/2023 18:46

I know they are. I was just musing that this idea is very English. I'm not the first person ever to make this observation on MN.

a whole HEPI report on this. https://www.hepi.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/HEPI_Somewhere-to-live_Report-121-FINAL.pdf Not that many years old (2019)

To quote from the Exec Summary:

The overwhelming majority of full-time students in Britain leave home to attend university. This marks British higher education out as unusual when judged against most international comparators.

It means that most British universities have diverged from their past and from how experts have repeatedly expected them to develop in the future. It also means that they differ from what policymakers seem to want from them now.

This report traces the history of residence in British higher education, showing that the current situation grew out of student demand, institutional ambition, and the actions of the state. The creation of a national university system enabled mass mobility and widening participation actually encouraged the belief that student life should be lived away from home.

Such was the power of this ideal that it survived cuts in public support and rising fees. At present, it is even overcoming the growth in rent levels. It seems likely to continue, with important consequences for students, their families, universities and the communities in which they are based, as well as for government.

Given this, Somewhere to Live concludes by arguing that we urgently need to start a debate about student residence; not because it is necessarily bad, but because we have no clear sense of what it is for. Rediscovering the reasons why British students came to study away from home may allow us to rethink why and how they should do so in the future

and from the report introduction

In Britain, in the academic year 2017-18, just over 80 per cent of full-time students left home for study. Forty-eight per cent of these students lived in purpose-built halls and 52 per cent lived in private rented accommodation.

In Ireland, by contrast, nearly half of undergraduates live with their parents and, in Australia, students are more likely to live in the family home than anywhere else.

Across Europe as a whole, the pattern is strikingly divergent from the British model: on average, 36 per cent of European students live in their parental home and only 18 per cent reside in student accommodation. Although some national systems – especially in Scandinavia do resemble, or even exceed, Britain in their enthusiasm for student mobility, it remains the case, as a recent and reliable report observes, that ‘in 64 per cent of countries living with parents is the most common housing form.’

Even in America, with its long tradition of residential universities and its growing industry of student accommodation providers, nearly 40 percent of students live at home and 77 per cent attend college in their home state.

https://www.hepi.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/HEPI_Somewhere-to-live_Report-121-FINAL.pdf

Piggywaspushed · 12/05/2023 19:36

Interestingboys. Always there with the facts!

I'm surprised they don't separate Scotland out there.

clary · 12/05/2023 20:12

I’m still laughing! Imagine everyone driving nine times a year to see their second year physicist at uni! Even if they do play the French horn!

Ah or play American football @Delphigirl ? No way would ds be happy leaving his £900+ of kit at uni even if he didn't need it for matches when at home. And he really couldn't tote it and his other stuff in a train.

You'd be shocked at me anyway - I have driven to watch him play 10 times this year. Add on pickups and drop offs and I dread to think. Luckily I am happy to do it. Tho he's bought a car now so I am not needed any more.

lastdayatschool · 12/05/2023 20:30

@clary - watching my DS playing rugby is going to be one of the biggest gaps in my life once he goes to University in September.

I've literally watched him play every weekend (in season) for the last 12 years. Would happily travel to watch him at university too, and he'd be fine with it - as long as I didn't hang around much afterwards - lol.

However, given we're in NI and he's (hopefully) heading to Exeter, it's not going to happen.

Will have to make do with a phone call afterwards 🙂

clary · 12/05/2023 21:16

lastdayatschool · 12/05/2023 20:30

@clary - watching my DS playing rugby is going to be one of the biggest gaps in my life once he goes to University in September.

I've literally watched him play every weekend (in season) for the last 12 years. Would happily travel to watch him at university too, and he'd be fine with it - as long as I didn't hang around much afterwards - lol.

However, given we're in NI and he's (hopefully) heading to Exeter, it's not going to happen.

Will have to make do with a phone call afterwards 🙂

Ah @lastdayatschool I feel for you. I do realise that I am a bit of an exception in a) genuinely wanting to watch DS play and b) being easily able to.

Most matches there is another family or so there, but usually a different one each week who have travelled from Surrey or wherever for just that match.

YY like you, I have watched DS play footy or various other sports what seems like every weekend since he was about 7yo. So it's nice to be able to continue it.

Mate of mine does in fact drive all over to watch his DS play for his uni team - the uni is about 2.5 hours away and of course the matches are sometimes even further. But I suspect that this is even more unusual. Best of luck to your fellow sporty DS.

TizerorFizz · 12/05/2023 23:03

@boys3 We know why students went away to study! The best universities were not at home! Students were a small elite group. The few old universities were not near everyone. So they moved.

As the university sector expanded, it copied the ancient m/older universities. It’s not rocket science. If all universities were equal, it would be of no consequence to stay at home. Our nearest university is bottom 10 in ranking. Next nearest ditto. So why would anyone who could aspire to better stay local. 30 years ago they were not universities at all. They were colleges of HE. Not even polytechnics. In effect they did serve the local population. Just mostly not to degree level. They certainly supported local business and their employees. However very unsuitable for the brightest academic DC.

Be careful what toy wish for when comparing universities abroad. Italy has two of the oldest universities in Europe. Bologna, the oldest, has nearly 90,000 students. Padua 70,000. Do we want that? Few halls of residence. World ranking - lower than they should be! Good enough, maybe, but the private universities are better. Is that what we want? The elite universities in France are great. The Grande Ecoles. Students certainly live in/near them from all over.

If Dc and parents want to see university as an extension of school, great. It’s a bit over invested though. Why not get on with your own life and let your student create theirs?

lastdayatschool · 12/05/2023 23:20

Interesting report @boys3

Re this comment "In Ireland, by contrast, nearly half of undergraduates live with their parents" I do wonder whether that 50% covers students who rent a room for Monday-Thursday in their university/college town/city, whilst returning home on Friday, Saturday and Sunday.

Hard to believe, given the small number of universities and colleges Ireland has, that 50% commute daily.

boys3 · 12/05/2023 23:33

@TizerorFizz you've lost me on that last post.

I simply linked to a report published by the Higher Education Policy Institute. . Perhaps I'm missing something. 🤔

boys3 · 12/05/2023 23:40

@clary didn't Loughborough just get promoted to the BUCS premier for your son's sport? The delights of Nottingham; presumably reasonably close for you; Leeds Beckett; Newcastle and Durham beckon this Autumn 😀. DS2 plays in the prem south division - we also enjoy going to watch with the away games making for pleasant weekends away. 🍷

clary · 12/05/2023 23:56

boys3 · 12/05/2023 23:40

@clary didn't Loughborough just get promoted to the BUCS premier for your son's sport? The delights of Nottingham; presumably reasonably close for you; Leeds Beckett; Newcastle and Durham beckon this Autumn 😀. DS2 plays in the prem south division - we also enjoy going to watch with the away games making for pleasant weekends away. 🍷

Impressive knowledge! What a season they had.

Yes indeed, trips to the North East loom. Leeds not so bad. Notts phew just up the road. 😃🏈🏈🏈

NoraBattysCurlers · 13/05/2023 08:05

The scale of student loans in England at the moment is completely unsustainable for both the student and government.

England has the largest student loan debt per borrower in the developed world – larger than even the USA. The Government forecasts the value of outstanding student loans to be around £460 billion (2021‑22 prices) by the mid-2040s.

Scale of student loans in England

Many students are now leaving university with student loans in excess of £55,000. Some are even accumulating debts far in excess of this.

Based on figures from a few years ago, the average English student has a student loan debt of £45,060 when they graduate with an average starting salary of £26,457. Making the assumption of a 2.5% pay rise per year, they would make the following payments.

  • Over 25 years repaying their loan, they would pay back a total of £33,400.
  • £11,539 of this would be in interest
  • It would leave a balance of £25,273 that is written off by the government

This leaves both the student and the government paying significant debt which are mostly unnecessary.

The situation outlined above has deteriorated significantly since. We are now in an era of higher interest rates and these amounts will be completely unsustainable for both the student and government.

EveryWitchWaybutLoose · 13/05/2023 08:21

And the tuition fee doesn’t cover the basic costs of undergraduate degrees. Domestic University students are highly subsidised by international students and the massive amount of unpaid overtime worked by university staff (mostly by academics).

user18 · 13/05/2023 08:36

The reality is that student loans are going to be far less sensible going forwards. Why would you willingly take on the burden of all that interest (yeah yeah I know someone will say but Martin Lewis says you might never pay it back if you’re a low earning graduate - sure but does anyone really aspire to be a low earning graduate?!). It makes more sense for a year out working to become the norm. It would also I suspect lead to fewer false starts and drop outs which you seem to hear about more and more nowadays.

user18 · 13/05/2023 08:38

We will also see various failures in the sector over the next couple of years I suspect. Not enough commercial funding going into many HE institutions.

EveryWitchWaybutLoose · 13/05/2023 08:46

@user18 if I ruled the world <cue Harry Secombe> I would require that all young people did a compulsory year of civic service on leaving school. No exceptions. It would be great for social cohesion and equality, and would offer experiences beyond the educational treadmill.

As you say, fewer false starts at university, and I’d get to teach students that positively wanted to be at university, rather than because it’s the next “done thing.”

Era · 13/05/2023 08:52

I know so many year 13 kids who have picked a subject for university because it’s ok if just because it’s their strongest ALevel. They don’t have any passion for studying it, they haven’t thought about where it will take them in terms of a career, it’s just as you say, the expected next step.

Era · 13/05/2023 08:54

Because it’s ok or it’s their strongest subject

RampantIvy · 13/05/2023 09:02

I agree that far too many students go to university because it is expected of them or it is the done thing, or they don't know what to do next. I see far too many posts from parents on various forums, not just MN, saying that their DC wants to go to university but they don't know what they want to study.

It was the making of DD to be unsuccessful in achieving a place at medical school.

She took a gap year, worked, volunteered and travelled, then was more than ready to go to university to study a STEM degree. She was worried about getting back into education, but she got her head down, worked hard and graduated with a good first. She is taking another gap year and working in a job related to what she wants to do for her masters (still waiting for an offer).

EveryWitchWaybutLoose · 13/05/2023 09:26

Just be clear, I don’t think that overall “too many” students go to university. The only way we’ll survive in a post-industrial global economy is as a knowledge economy.

But at the moment, as @RampantIvy says, too many kids go to university because it is “the done thing.”

And this has effects on embedding educational advantage in socio-economic advantage. The level of special tutoring, trying to game the system, buying education, starts at primary school and continues, for families who can afford it. So DC with ability but without this socio-economic advantage appear not to be as “clever.” It’s such a waste of talent and I wish we could find a way to even things out a bit more.

TizerorFizz · 13/05/2023 10:23

I have often felt that I’m a lone voice in saying DC should do the best A levels for their degree choice and even think about a career! The education experts are often promoting courses and universities which have poor career outcomes. @user18 I can assure you that many grads don’t aspire to much at all. Just earning is an achievement. I know loads who are working for charities and in poorly paid jobs, even with a masters. Subjects and university matters. What really matters is the drive and personality to get a job snd put the cv together.

Yes. We have too many degrees. We could try and get far more apprenticeships for 18 year olds. Most degree apprenticeships are taken by adults. Many of whom have a degree. Around 3600 have been going to 18 year olds. It’s not good enough. These should be a real alternative not a needle in a haystack!

boys3 · 13/05/2023 10:49

It’s not good enough. These should be a real alternative not a needle in a haystack!

You mean we need some sort of actual thought through and dare I say it joined up Further and Higher Education policy direction from central Government (irrespective of political leaning).

100% agree on that; less convinced as to the ability to get there. How many Secretaries of State for Education have we had over the past decade? I'd probably need a Maths Phd to keep up on that. Alternatively I could just google it. Ten. With eight of those since mid 2016.

In contrast - and I'm not suggesting this was necessarily a golden era - we had ten in total between 1976 and 2001.

You are absolutely right @TizerorFizz it really is not good enough. Everything is short-term; knee-jerk and with no consideration of any wider societal and economic impacts or dependencies.