DD is prioritising student satisfaction so ruling out a lot of RG unis

[Satisfiedstudent]

My DD thinks student satisfaction is one of the most important factors in university decision-making so she is ruling out a lot of the top universities. She says most of the Russell Group unis are very poorly rated and whenever I suggest somewhere (Cardiff, Birmingham…. ) she whips out the Sunday Times guide book my mum bought her and promptly dismisses it. My DH thinks this is reasonable as a happy student is more likely to do well but I am not so sure that student satisfaction is the be all and end all and wonder what you all think?

Oh, is she looking at UKC in Canterbury? I went to uni there and loved it. It's a fab campus and a great city to live in for 3 years.

I'd be incredibly wary of student satisfaction surveys as a way of comparing universities. There's just too many variables factors at play, each student's experience will depend hugely on the individual course, and their own expectations. Assuming your DD has decided on a course (and that's a whole other kettle of fish) I'd encourage her to compare the course specifications/content, entry requirements and location- does she want to be in a city or a smaller town? Campus or not?

It absolutely would qualify in terms of research activity. I think it’s down to politics and a bit of Scottish exceptionalism 🤷‍♀️ But from the student perspective the academic experience is very similar.

I think I might need to correct myself about Oxbridge though - I think they are formally RG, but that’s not the most important thing for them, and the small group teaching and intensity means it feels quite different than elsewhere for the students. And of course in the background the politics and exceptionalism is just as present as somewhere like St. Andrews!

I agree with your dd.
My dd chose a UNI over several RG unis. She had offers from 3 RG but chose a local (ish) uni offering lower grades. This was based on the feel she got when visiting said uni. She’s now about to finish her first year and is doing great.

I think all these surveys and rankings are at best a very blunt tool. I went to an RG University (now - it didn't exist in my day) and my experience was very different to friends studying different things. We may as well have been on different planets in some respects.I also agree that student satisfaction is quite vague and, of course, subjective. The metric I am most interested in is graduate employment, but even that isn't necessarily all it seems. Employed as what?
I would say that if you are looking at this kind of data then you definitely need to look at at least faculty level, ideally course level, and even then take it all with a pinch of salt and try to gain info from other sources too.
My current year 12 DS is set on one particular course and place and I agree with him, it looks excellent in terms of both the course content and the data on all the main league tables. But I am insisting he visits other places, even ones he is "definitely" not interested in. You need to have something to compare to and I do think there is something to be said for physically visiting places if you can.
But I agree thet RG doesn't automatically mean "best". My DS is set on a 1992 University and there's an RG University in the same city so lots of people have been saying "why don't you apply to the "real" University, you're bright so you'll probably get in". Actually for his intended course the ex poly is far higher in all the rankings, and has higher entry requirements. We've talked to people in the relevant industry who have all said that they really rate the ex poly and view the graduates more favourably than most others. Obviously this wouldn't be true in other subjects. Every establishment has its strengths and weaknesses and some will suit particular students more than others. Personally I wouldn't rule out anywhere on one survey.

Uni choice is too important for your feelings about driving her to be a deciding factor. She can get the bus/train/plane back and forth like many people do. My parents were in NI; they dropped me off in southeast England once, for Freshers week, and after that I got myself home and booked my own planes and trains.

Encourage her to think about what she wants to get out of uni and of some of the shortcomings of student satisfaction surveys, then butt out. It's her life.

My friend works at a university. He told me that most of the students don’t complete the student satisfaction survey so the results are flawed.

Students who are happier with their experiences tend to also get better classes of degree and therefore hopefully better chances of employment post Uni. Your daughter sounds like she is making a really well informed decision.

This is the beginning of her journey into real independence and adulthood; I really don't think one of her first major personal life decisions should be based around "can mum and dad drive me there". Let her make this decision on her own, and then offer what support you reasonably can.

Which subject, if she wishes to do law as a career for a top law firm then Oxbridge/RG is important, for other subjects like medicine, healthcare it’s not important.
Set an accommodation price limit and see what she comes up with.

'Satisfaction' means different things to different people. Someone who went to an 'RG uni expecting a top grad job to fall into their laps might be dissatisfied when that didn't happen. Someone who just wanted the piece of paper, and to party all day long might be happy at a 'spoonfeeding' uni.

Your daughter needs to determine what would make HER, as an individual happy. And then go for the unis which offer those. Not what 'other people' think based on surveys.

Also it should be her choice, but as you're funding her it's perfectly fine to guide and offer some parameters, She's a teenager - how many of us were capable of making the best decisions at that age? Of course, some are more mature than others but we don't dump them with no guidance just because 'legally' they are adults!

If she WANTS to be driven then she can't go too far. Equally if she WANTS a certain standard of living based on X amount you can top up, it's up to her to determine what unis meet that.

I think that student satisfaction is very important.

But I'm not sure that the number for student satisfaction is going to tell you anything. Everyone's different and people who are happy don't tend to fill out surveys. Courses that push you may result in lower student satisfaction but are better courses

For example if I'm only in 3 lectures a week, get top grades in all my essays and spend my time chatting and partying, I'm going to rate my experience highly. But that doesn't make it a good course. Its better to think about about you want from university, what sort of place you want to live in and explore from there

Mine made their own decisions. But I made them do the journey to the uni open days by public transport so they'd know how long it would take them, and pointed them at the ticket booking website so they could compare travel costs. Dd is about 2 hours away and comes home (by train) for a couple of nights whenever she fancies a shower that works properly and food that she didn't have to cook herself.

I also reminded them they'll get the same amount of money from us wherever they go, and that a cheaper city would leave them more money for partying (dd) or gadgets (ds1).

Right, because there are no flaws in using RG as your definition of best university.

Of course student satisfaction is important. Few people would argue with that.

However, whether the NSS is a good measure of student satisfaction is a very different question. Arguably, it is merely a measure of the institution's ability to perform well in student satisfaction surveys.

I used to work for an institution that generally performed very well in NSS. The powers that be were terribly focused on getting those good results, but that often meant that they weren't very interested in stuff that didn't feature in the NSS questions. There are tried and tested ways of pushing up the scores, but that doesn't necessarily translate to real increases in student satisfaction.

Also OP the things you can use as a 'proxy' for student satisfaction:
Contact time, module structure, module choices, etc.

Furthermore... while 'academic style' is the last thing anybody seems to mention on these threads, it's very important!

I am quite academic, good at exams. But I also like debates, discussion. My 'RG' course had a lot of great optional modules that allowed me to explore, leading to my current career unrelated to my degree!

DP cannot do exams to save his life (bit like Einstein.. failed English GCSE's twice) so his degree, mostly coursework suited him perfectly!

I do wonder whether your daughter isn't actually interested in student satisfaction. A lot of the rhetoric around these places are that they're academic hothouses. Maybe she's just secretly worried that she won't be good enough but is loathe to admit it.

Is she actually expecting you to top up her loan or is that something you have offered to do? Does she know it comes with conditions?

I would say she increases her chances of a successful time at uni (both academically and experience wise) if she goes somewhere she has chosen to go to herself. That said, it needs to be an informed decision i.e. not just one made on looking at student satisfaction. Likewise you need to explain to her why you think RG unis are better for her so that can form part of her decision making.

Plenty of parents don't take their children to and from uni, or they make 2 trips a year (beginning and end of academic year). My parents came to my uni once - for my graduation.

Well, of course, that's flawed too.

In my view, there are no short cuts to picking the best uni for any given individual. No league tables or badges that will tell you what you really need to know. The only real way is to really research each course and what it offers, how it's structured etc; to talk to current students about their experiences; and ideally to visit each uni to see how you feel when you get there.

I worked in academia for 15 years and got to quite a high level. She’s definitely doing the right thing. The student experience at my uni is so poor due to many things. It’s about time the VCs were made to listen by students voting with their feet & pocket.

REF ratings rate research which whilst v important and v important to most staff don’t enhance a students experience. An excellent research Uni is not always the best for teaching for example. The left hand never seems to know what the right hand is doing 🙄

She needs to visit them and get a feel for each place. My DD was set on certain unis, dismissed others from reading stuff online.

Ended up at one she had barely considered .... went to an open day there and just felt she fitted in and she'd be happy living there for 3+ years. Didn't like the vibe in some of the ones she was set on.

YOu could get her a car so she can get herself there and back and you don't have to bother driving up to get her? And she could get a part-time job to help pay her own way. There are a of number of jobs where you can study during quiet times whilst working.

I'm fascinated by how involved parents are in university choice nowadays. I'm not sure mine even know what university I went to!

Strong agree with everyone who has said she needs to visit the universities on open days and get a real feel for the place. Whether or not somewhere is a RG uni can't be the deciding factor and your daughter is right that if a particular uni isn't for her (culture, city vs campus, etc etc) then she'll be miserable and will not do well regardless of their rankings and a First from a non RG uni is better than a Third from a RG uni. Equally, student satisfaction surveys are a blunt tool and won't tell the whole story either.

You both need to pin down what she wants and come up with a slightly more comprehensive set of criteria, visit some universities, and be realistic about what you can offer. Also, don't worry too much about the drive. My dad drove me to university at the start.lf my first term and then I got the train. I think that's quite normal.

I think the satisfaction surveys are a valid comparator, just like other metrics, such as employment and average wages after graduation, both on a course by course basis and also Uni by Uni basis - lots of "league" tables giving particular ratings and then overall rankings etc. It's part of the whole matrix of markers to help inform the decision, such as RG or not, campus or city, cost of living, catered halls or self catering, facilities on campus, nightlife, ease of public transport options, "vibe/feel" of the place, etc.

What the OP's DD mustn't do is make a decision based only on one metric - they need to bear all relevant markers in mind and make a decision based on the best fit, having considered all surveys/options, etc.

Russell Group is the academic equivalent of a private member's club. If you fit the criteria and want to be a member, you pay your subs and you join.

(Yes, I know it's more nuanced than that, but not by much)

My daughter started university this year and had no input from me. When my students ask me where they should go I tell them where they think they'll be happy.

The distance thing should perhaps be relevant if the student will want to see their parents often.

Maybe because they're supposed to top up?

And for the students, it's getting worse.

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2023/05/martin-lewis-good-morning-britain-student-loans/

" Currently, on the current system, the state pays 44p in the pound and the student pays 56p in the pound on average. Under the new system, the state will pay 19p in the pound and the student or graduate will pay 81p in the pound on average."

Unless you're Scottish, attending a Scottish university!