Depressed about MFL in education

[MFLresearch]

I last year alerted my 6th formers about Sheffield University who have, regrettably, scaled down their MFL offering. A great shame but part of a pattern sector wide.

It is spectacularly depressing, as a MFL teacher in a state 6th from college, to track the decline of MFL over my teaching career. University MFL applications are at rock bottom in our college this year because of uncertainty about year abroad funding - Turing scheme is a lesser offering than Erasmus and our families cannot afford to make up the difference and fund the year abroad. Consequently, of my talented MFL students, fewer than ever will be pursuing MFL study at university. A-level uptake and degree applications are the lowest ever at my college - and projected to get even worse in 2023-4.

I heard on the grapevine that further MFL courses are under threat at universities currently offering them. A number of post 1992 unis apparently considering withdrawing them. Has anyone else heard similarly?

Posting really because it’s late, I can’t sleep and the whole MFL/teaching situation depressing AF (plus the government still not offering decent pay so my colleagues and I will be striking again).

I'm fully bilingual (went to a bilingual school, and have an MFL degree) and have studied French and Japanese separately, I do have a true love for languages. However, unless you want to be a translator/interpreter an MFL degree (to me) seems pretty pointless. I have another degree in communications/journalism and that's what has opened the doors. I rarely use my languages, and they're just a USP.

There is definitely not a correlation between availability of FM and MFL in your average comprehensive schools. I know some on this thread want to see it as anti intellectualism in the comprehensive sector but in the case of MFL it isn't , It is :

funding - less popular subjects are being cut through financial necessity
lack of teachers, which will get worse, not better. If you haven't got a teacher, you can have queues of kids wanting to do Spanish but they can't.
widespread anti European/anti language learning attitude society wide
a utilitarian approach to education that only values subjects which are 'of practical use' - this comes from government, parents, students and , yes, SLT and teachers in general brought up with that view
a focus in schools on Ofsted who tend to want to know about SEN, attendance, FSM etc, not A level provision
the view in some that MFL is a luxury 'frill'
parental and student choice
the rise of STEM

FM is far more widely offered than it was. The schools locally to me that have ditched A level MFL all have maths and FM.

My dd has also applied to do MFL at uni!
We are in Scotland and MFL such as French ar taught in primary but with the curriculum so squeezed, I'm.not sure it's done that well. French is compulsory at high school though until 2nd year I think.
My dd is sitting her Advanced higher Italian and higher French and Spanish. She is very good at languages. I'm a bit gutted by this thread!

What is it costing to live in Germany for his degree roughly (pa)? @LarissaFeodorovna

Is he an EU citizen or there as a U.K. student? I’m beginning to wonder if this is a better route for one of my DC.

Sadly my DD didn’t really like maths. Was competent but in the top Set for GCSE she was aware of the best mathematicians. It wasn’t her. DH is an engineer but she wasn’t following him! Languages were her thing. She put the time in to learn by rote but found it fairly easy. Her brain worked that way! Not sure she would ever have changed to stem. People like her should be accommodated too.

My dc has dual UK/EU citizenship, which makes things easier administratively speaking, although it does also throw up odd anomalies as German bureaucrats sometimes can't compute the idea of someone being simultaneously German and not German! But most of dc's friends are not EU citizens - obviously there are lots of Ukrainians, but also Indians, Albanians, South Americans, Koreans, everywhere you can think of.

Most undergrad courses at state universities are free for everyone, and student visas seem to be reasonably easy to get, although a UK student wouldn't be able to get everything lined up for the same year as the A-level results come out, as you can't even start the application until you have the results in hand. We just about managed it for the same year, but if you had to go the visa route there wouldn't be time. Overseas students I think have to show a blocked bank account containing an amount equivalent to a year's living costs - there are companies that will do that for you, but it didn't apply to us so not entirely sure how it works or what the amounts are.

The cost of living for students is hugely lower than in the UK. DC is in a big bustling university city which is not one of the hotspots of Berlin/Munich/Hamburg, and is paying €260 a month including all bills and internet for a big sunny room in a hall of residence. The only 'fee-type' cost is a €250 semester contribution (ie. €500 a year) which covers all the subsidised university services like sports facilities, canteens etc, and a student card which also acts as a free public transport pass for the city and the surroundings, so it's a fabulous bargain really.

German universities are much more 'sink or swim' than Uk ones in terms of pastoral care and academic oversight, but at a government level it does feel that students are valued in a way the UK govt really doesn't.

My DD’s strengths sound similar to yours Tizer. She did supplement her Spanish, English lit & History A levels with Maths at AS level but found the one lesson a week dedicated to it a challenge. Timetabling given because it was only half an A level. The class went from 12 students to 3 vs 9 sets of full A /FM students.

The thread is a bleak for MFL neveradullmoment99 but good luck to your DD on her application. I don’t agree that it leads only to translation/interpreting, based on a previous poster. But I do think a student needs to be proactive in seeking any exposure to engage in their languages to develop their skills, as well as have the love. This will include articles, research, editing roles for etc they can access that will supplement the CV. It doesn’t need a Journalist or Comms degree, just an applied student who’s developed these skills and can package them accordingly. Maybe even stand out more given how much more challenging it’s becoming.

I think the problem is there is only tokenism in providing second language tuition in state primary schools. If they got children learning languages properly younger then they would be more inclined to continue. It doesn't help that when you go on holiday to Spain and try and model attempting to speak another language they speak back in perfect English to you!

@neveradullmoment99 It’s not all doom and gloom. Choose a more academic course and a top tier uni if she can and get those other skills up to scratch.

For example, DD ran the Italian society. Organised the MFL “ball”. Applied for internships and volunteered or worked in vacations. None of it connected with her MFL but definitely building up a cv as a capable person who can juggle. She did know what career she wanted so that helped. Laser focus! A lot of grads don’t know what they want and translation is dying out and not well paid so they feel a bit lost. Positions in businesses are often secured by skills other than MFLs but MFLs can be attractive to some employers because of the range of what’s required on the best courses. MFL grads are competing against lots of grads with degrees such as history, English, Psychology etc so make sure the cv is good then no reason not to progress into work and start a worthwhile career.

And whilst it’s not for everyone, DD did 6 weeks au pairing in Madrid last summer. No visa required as they travel under au pair visa (under 90 days). She picked a family who wanted her to speak English to the kids during the day but adults would speak in Spanish. 20 mins out from Madrid, she bus’ed in most evenings, hung out with YP/other au pairs met via FB groups, and had the odd UK visitor over weekends. Very little outlay from her, transport is cheap vs here /‘s frequent.

If students want to supplement their speaking skills beyond holiday sentences, it can be done.

although a UK student wouldn't be able to get everything lined up for the same year as the A-level results come out, as you can't even start the application until you have the results in hand.

The deadline to apply is 15 July so unfortunately not possible for A level students. They would lose a year.

There's another problem for UK students - to be admitted to study you need a variety of A level subjects including a language, maths, often a science and a subject relevant to the course.

My dc also have EU passports but have chosen to study in the UK for those reasons, although my dd did an Erasmus exchange last academic year

I will stop banging the drum I promise after this, just if that one student decides to counter the negatives associated with MFL and go for it, it'll be worth it :)

For those saying when abroad and attempting to engage locally, how often do you/your YP respond back with something like 'would you mind humouring me by speaking back in x, I'm trying to learn'? I know not everyone will oblige, waiting staff and busy etc, but seriously, the rejection is not that bad, no one's died, and quite often it's a positive response. Pushing through is not very British but we need to do a little more of it.

Maybe because I am an immigrant to the UK, albeit 56 years ago, but neither DH nor I have attended uni, brought up in low income, single parent households we have a thicker skin in hustling to progress. MFL already has so many barriers to entry, but if your DC truly have an aptitude for it, then they may need to think more creatively on how adopt a less victim like mentality (which is natural, given the shit show this country deals its students) and seize what is available around them to improve.

And this also includes learning from native speakers in class vs being intimidated by them. Who whilst may be strong in spoken language, often do not have the essay writing, grammar, cultural interests etc that non natives can develop, and therefore securing the top grades (especially at A level) are up for grabs for all, more than you think.

We live in a multi cultural society that is always going to have native advantages where language is involved. Other countries may respect language learning differently/earlier but having it define us to not try does not serve our YP well.

I speak as someone who has zero language skills other than O level french sat in 1984 but am supporting a YP who has, and is really enjoying all that comes with it.

There's a later application date for some courses, particularly I assume the ones aimed at overseas students. For my dc's course teh application deadline was 31st August, which was very tight but just about doable. But do not get me started on the Gm version of UCAS for overseas students, which is called UniAssist, and which we ended up referring to as UniDesist. They were a horrible mixture of arrogant and incompetent - it still gives me the rage two years later.

My DD found the native speakers at uni had been coached well and had the same A levels she did. Why wouldn’t they? They had attended school here but had a parent who had taught them all they needed for the language and of course their essay writing skills via English or History A level were good enough! All high grades because that was required for the course. They had spent all holidays in the country practicing languages with grandparents so definitely had a big advantage for culture too! However it’s important not to be intimidated - DD did poetry of the crusades and they didn’t do that! So always find modules that might be a bit different. Definitely believe in yourself. Have a plan for a career and if it’s not anything to do with languages, so be it. Take all the other skills from the degree, year abroad, your work experience and go with that.

It is good that FM is more widely available, though I am sorry for the possibility that this is at the expense of MFL, @Piggywaspushed and @Pythag

In theory aggregating MFL, FM and other A levels with small enrolments (in some schools) would work well. The problem is that if schools lose funding for A level tuition taken at other sites they may be reluctant to support students in this endeavour - the very reason so many FM admissions requirements are still caveated.

@Pythag and others may be aware of a well designed study done at the renowned Maths Education Centre at Loughborough (I think by Ian Jones) in about 2016 showing that A level Maths standards had decreased from the 1960s to the 1990s and then held roughly steady, with a 1960s grade E earning a B in 2016. When I have some time I will look for increased rigour between 2016 and now.

In the Dec 2023 PISA results the UK ranked 14 which was pretty good and points to improvements in teaching! Western countries in the Top 10 were Estonia, Ireland, Canada and Switzerland. All take different pedagogical approaches from the UK. The notoriously relaxed Finns also pipped us at the post.

Our university system may be different. One look at the permanent academic staff in any good STEM school and the academic affiliations of the younger members (avout half overseas) casts doubt on the idea that this is necessarily a good thing.

There is a specialist maths 6th form in our city.
We were interested to hear it offered MFL A Levels too - Dd loves both maths and languages, and was keen to apply.

But it turned out actually the only MFL they offer is Mandarin - and you have to have done gcse. It’s admirable they offer it, but I can’t imagine many (any?) non-native speakers from the local comps will be able to take them up on that offer! Presumably one of the existing teachers is qualified in that as well so they thought they may as well offer it.

Dd wanted a broader mix at A level and not to do just science and maths, so didn’t apply. If it had offered other MFL A levels she would have bitten their hand off.

I suspect they know they have applicants who have done Mandarin GCSE and they know their market. It might be attractive to nature speakers who are also great at maths and most other schools won’t be offering Mandarin.

It's absolutely tragic. My son's school (he is year 10) can barely keep their MFL department going. They have a vacancy they can't fill and now the head of dept is also leaving and the first attempt at recruitment has not been successful. I love languages and it's heart breaking so see him and his peers not even get a real chance. I wonder if schools are going to start having to scale their language offer right back.

@Ferniebrook Some have but it’s a core subject. Supposed to be continued to GCSE but that’s largely ignored. Many DC get a choice of 1 MFL and that’s poor for linguists. They need greater exposure as scientists do.

People don’t want to teach. Fewer MFL grads will ensure this continues. Teaching doesn’t sell itself as a good job and MFL grads do look for other work, Many don’t use their MFLs either. They use the degree as a platform for other work. Plenty of people work 60 hours a week. It’s common in some careers. The grads just prefer those careers over teaching. They are very much aware what teaching is!

I’ve started doing 45 mins Spanish a week with my son dredging up my A level Spanish. Less than ideal as my grammar is rusty. But they’d let him coast along and and I know he can do a lot better. Just a little help and he is already improving a lot. What frustrates me most is all the children can’t wait to stop languages as they are bored and unfulfilled.

My Dd went to an outstanding school in the posh bit of Sheffield. They could do German, French or Spanish A level. She didn’t do any.

I wonder what school you’re talking about? It can’t be the one beginning with T. But l didn’t know there were any other outstanding secondaries in that part of the city.

In Scotland many schools only offer 6 subjects at National 5, the equivalent of GCSE, and there is a maximum of 8. If they are doing Maths and English (as I think they have to), that only leaves 4-6 subjects. How many kids would prioritise a language when they have so little choice? This applies to lots of subjects actually, I think it's crazy to limit kids to 6 subjects at such an early age.

In my DS’s year, no modern language was offered at GCSE. So I think you are right.

Wow. Literally no option to do a language to GCSE? The start of the end…

That’s 0% on Ebacc then. I wonder what ofsted will think? Hardly a balanced curriculum.