Depressed about MFL in education

[MFLresearch]

I last year alerted my 6th formers about Sheffield University who have, regrettably, scaled down their MFL offering. A great shame but part of a pattern sector wide.

It is spectacularly depressing, as a MFL teacher in a state 6th from college, to track the decline of MFL over my teaching career. University MFL applications are at rock bottom in our college this year because of uncertainty about year abroad funding - Turing scheme is a lesser offering than Erasmus and our families cannot afford to make up the difference and fund the year abroad. Consequently, of my talented MFL students, fewer than ever will be pursuing MFL study at university. A-level uptake and degree applications are the lowest ever at my college - and projected to get even worse in 2023-4.

I heard on the grapevine that further MFL courses are under threat at universities currently offering them. A number of post 1992 unis apparently considering withdrawing them. Has anyone else heard similarly?

Posting really because it’s late, I can’t sleep and the whole MFL/teaching situation depressing AF (plus the government still not offering decent pay so my colleagues and I will be striking again).

and the HEPI one

https://www.hepi.ac.uk/2020/01/09/a-languages-crisis/

@TizerorFizz The issue isn't really with MFL itself but the competition. I appreciate that MFL at an academic level isn't the same as learning external language classes, even if it follows the CEFR, but there are 2 categories IMHO who used to take MFL.

The DC who are genuinely interested in it, passionate, will always pick it no matter what. No problem.

DC who are not particularly interested in MFL itself, but the other opportunities, are finding them less applicable. The year abroad for example (quite a few MFL degrees used to have a mandatory year abroad). Also with fees increasing many DC are finding it hard to fund. Of course much further back we had fewer other avenues so a degree was one of the few ways to learn a new language.

As a result kids are choosing to do other degrees. You are arguing 'why don't they do MFL' but their argument is 'why should they'? It's the same with things like law, history, a valid choice for people who didn't really 'know what to do' people think they can do MFL on the side, so that's a push factor.

It's funny about the Sri Lankan garage owner because those raised multilingual aren't really into 'MFL'. They just absorbed it so don't see why they need to go to university to do more languages, unless they're really into it. A bit like how, everyone speaks English, but does everyone like English Literature? Nope.

Just here to say that I agree.

The last time I looked around 18,000 undergrads do law. Many at unis with poor outcomes for law grads. I’ve no idea how many students do MFL degrees. Did you post that earlier @boys3 ? The big issue is that talented linguists drop MFLs. They could do it but schools don’t have the resources and decide it’s not worthwhile. It is a platform to employment in exactly the same way history is (as long as you’ve done an academic degree!

Not guilty

STEM and MFL are not mutually exclusive for people in most non-Anglophone countries. One of my dc is studying a STEM degree in Germany, on a degree course with English as the medium of instruction, but the opportunity to learn German alongside as part of the degree. All the students speak fluent English in addition to one or more other languages - out of dc's friendship group there are plenty of students who have native-standard competence in three languages already, eg. Russian/Ukrainian/English, Hindi + Gujerati/Punjabi + English, French/Arabic/English, Polish/French/English and Portuguese/French/English. And these kids are just casually learning German alongside studying for a full-on STEM degree course.

Not hard to see which group of candidates is going to be more attractive to big international companies when compared with monolingual British students. Of course there's an additional pull factor for Germany as there are no fees for these degree courses - UK Universities have really priced themselves out of this market in comparison, with Brexit and the hostile environment as the icing on the cake. There are STEM degrees here which offer a year abroad, but it's very much a minority thing, and many of the years abroad are in other English-speaking countries, so don't widen the horizons beyond the Anglosphere.

Exactly - in many countries students don't need to go to University to learn or study a language. They have learned languages from an early age at school and through exchange programmes. In addition many students make use of the excellent Erasmus exchange programme and spend a semester abroad!

A friend did Italian and had a fabulous year in Italy during her course (this was back before tuition fees). She became a journalist after gaining a Masters at I believe LCP. She never used her Italian as part of her job, but she loved it and it is very useful on holiday! And it trained her brain a certain way.
She specialised in marketing journalism and and at her peak earned around six figures.
MFL seems a great degree to me, and at least as useful as all those other degrees with no specific job at the end - her son did History and is in the military! In fact probably a more useful degree in life than many.
I did part of my university education in Paris (nothing to do with languages). All the Americans (it was a branch of a US uni) there spoke one language- their own. All the Europeans spoke at least two, frequently three or four. They always seemed much more sophisticated! Though of course English was learned in school and reinforced by television and film. My own children had French lessons since early in primary school for at least six years - if they can say anything more than 'je m'appelle...' I'd be amazed. As my daughter is now in Portugal for a limited work experience (again nothing to do with language), she says the language is a barrier, even though most speak English, it doesn't help when trying to absorb the culture. It was not the destination she would have chosen (Berlin was the possible original destination and she does have a distinction in German at GCSE), and Portuguese hardly a common second language, but it has been eye opening for her how useful a second language can be.

I think one issue is languages are quite hard at school compared with some easier subjects and people may not want to put in the work to learn vocabulary and grammar rules. I still think every reasonably clever child should do a foreign language at GCSE - all 5 of mine did although none took one at sixth form. I did German and French and then in the sixth form German A level. Even today I use it every time I sing a song at the piano of Schubert etc etc. I don't read German novels which we did do in the sixth form but I have not forgotten a lot of it. The only other girl who carried on with it to upper sixth with me has made her life in Germany with a British husband and uses it every day so it has certainly benefited her a lot and I would say helped me even just with things like grammar, never mind singing classical music. It went well with History and English lit A levels as I did a law degree. We also did quite a bit about Germany in A level history so I felt quite a bit of useful over lap there too.

Anyway I suppose AI is changing so much - even back 10 years ago my twins could use google translate as teenagers and people have translation apps on their phones and bit by bit English is becoming even more of the international language.

To your Sri Lankan garage owner... why would anyone do law at university? Any MFL grad from a good university can do a law conversion and be far more employable for big law firms having had a far more rounded education than law grad peers. It's not just being able to speak the extra languages.

Long time ago I know, but many MFL contemporaries went to bar or competitive magic circle firms via conversion, some are now KCs etc.

But this just leads back to why 'MFL' degrees are in decline. Even some UK universities offer that. At LSE for example with most traditional subjects (not sure about the new fancy ones like data science) you can take a free choice module each year and a language degree module is one of the options. Similarly there are also non-degree language courses.

Learning a language and the academic study of it aren't the same thing.

It really depends on what people want from a degree.... Also, in the last decade or so grade has become really important. I can see people thinking that 'MFL' is really hard compared to, say history and choosing to do the latter if they don't have a genuine passion for MFL.

Learning a language and the academic study of it aren't the same thing.

This.

I agree completely with the challenges that MFL study has faced over the years, its continued decline and the inequality of access across schools. On top of the implications of Brexit and British attitudes to MFL study. But these threads often separate out into debates about the potential proficiency gained in language alone, vs the wider attributes a language studies programme offers (a traditional one at least), and more courses that are still running seem to be catering for those that want language provision alone. Which is a shame as the value is lost of the skills and interests gained from a decent programme, which includes but is not exclusive to just language learning.

Students will all have varying needs and interests, hence reviewing each uni offering is crucial. My DD's friends at uni will often say about her work that they would have struggled to articulate the history, debate a political positioning, read the literature, write essays etc in english, let alone in a foreign language. Or more than one language for most. Which is what she has to do.

I think it's short sighted to just view a good MFL programme of study as language learning alone. It's so much more. And if a student is able to enter a programme of study because they love all those things 'in spite' of narrow attitudes, and articulate their value point of difference in the process of recruitment, then great.

I do appreciate that access is one of the major challenges in the first place, and one that she's been very fortunate to have had, even though I would add that whilst provision for A level language study was high at her school, anecdotally when looking at leavers destinations and programme study in high profile London schools over 5 years, MFL for UG dropped off the cliff, even take up from native students was very low.

Her school was one that offered out teaching provision to local schools (inc Saturday lessons) but clearly not able to bridge the gap to take up at HE, for all the objections already raised on this thread.

@ealingwestmum Ive been trying to get posters to differentiate between speaking a MFL and studying it at a top class uni where all the benefits you suggest are available to the student. It’s great prep for any career. My DD doesn’t compete with anyone from abroad for work and doesn’t use her languages at work. She does, however, use nearly every other skill she acquired.

@Rhinoc I agree and DD is a barrister now. However people rank degrees- as they do on MN. Doctor, pharmacist, lawyer, engineer etc are the highest rank. He hadn’t realised about law conversion until I told him. In his mind she was selling herself short. Not in mine but many people see a degree as training for a profession. To him, MFL didn’t hack it.

You are of course right about learning modern languages in general being a separate thing from the academic study of it at HE level. But the two are not completely separate - other humanities subjects are also being disadvantaged at HE level, but MFL are made even more vulnerable by the downgrading of language learning in secondary schools.

When my dc started secondary there were multiple local state secondaries offering German; now none do, and in the wider area the only ones that still offer it are a couple of elite grammar schools. In the area we live in now, no schools or colleges offer German at any level. In my dc's large 6th form college, a total of three students took French A-level, compared with three or four full classes of maths A level students. It's just slipped furhter and further down the radar of schools, which inevitably reduces the number of applicants at university level. So of course MFL are a sitting target when universities need to streamline their subject offerings.

Further maths isn’t struggling as a subject at A-level. Each year more and more students take it. It goes from strength to strength.

FM is still not available everywhere, @Pythag. That’s why some RG admissions requirements caveat the requirement for it. The Further Maths Support Network (now the Advanced Maths Support Network) was formed to provide online FM tuition; however some schools refused even to pay the small fees to allow their pupils to access this. I know because I met these pupils at Open Days and interviews.

I agree that FM numbers are rising and that this is an excellent thing. But it is disgraceful that some pupils still do not have access.

PS all readers might like to know that the Advanced Maths Support Network has a lot of excellent, free online material around FM, STEP, MAT and TMUA. They also provide further activities at very reasonable cost

I’m a maths teacher and know the AMSP, who do great work :) I think teaching and learning of maths has gone from strength to strength in England in recent years. Maths is now the most popular A-level by a significant margin. I love the new style maths-A level.

It is true that not every school offers further maths, but that is not a new thing. I am not aware of schools that used to offer further maths stopping offer it (so the situation is nothing like MFL).

At my school we have about 40 students take further maths each year. In fact, we always get pupils transferring to our school in the sixth form because they want to do further maths and their old school either does not offer it or because they don’t want to be in a very small class.

Your school sounds wonderful, @Pythag I wish every talented child had such an option, and also that all pupils had equal access to good tuition for the university entrance exams. AMSN is grest but cannot do it all.

Apologies to everyone else for detailing this thread !

I do think with maths there are incredible online resources. The STEP support programme online is excellent and also I know Oxford do an online teach in for sixth formers once a week, prepping them.

Of course, some schools will inevitably have more than others: I am at a state grammar and we are able to specifically prep students for STEP. But as teachers we go the extra mile, regularly giving up our lunchtimes.

It is somewhat sad that some students do not have the great opportunities that ours do. But it is also inevitable. Some teachers are better than others, some schools have better behaviour, more ambition for their pupils, some people have more supportive parents.

One reason why maths is different is that it’s taken by everyone for GCSE . This was the intention with MFL but of course it’s been ditched. Once this happened the slippery slope to oblivion started.

If dc just do one MFL at gcse, it limits A level and degree choices. Maths A level is available everywhere but not a MFL. Just doing one MFL gcse means just one for A level. A second at degree level is then ab initio. That’s daunting for some. Good teaching in 2 MFLs for 7 or 6 years is be excusal to linguists. I think FM can be found more widely but I wonder if no FM and no MFLs go missing in the same schools?

I think you are correct that FM is more widely available than MFL, @TizerorFizz , and I suspect that your observation that these subjects go missing together is correct.

The reason I am writing at this time of night is that @Pythag has given me insomnia. When I was doing STEM admissions I did outreach some of which involved preparation for the uni maths exams. Pupils who have regular, personal tuition have an advantage it is impossible to overestimate. I think the online STEP tuition is pretty good, but numerous discussions with pupils have convinced me that this requires the caveat ‘if you are really exceptional or if you have a teacher or tutor to help you.’ That help makes all the difference for a talented child.

For context, my own research is maths adjacent to the extent that I sometimes publish in maths journals. DH is a Russell Group maths professor with national and international research esteems, and he is clear that the teaching he received as a scholarship boy at an excellent school had everything to do with the Oxbridge admission opening the door to this outcome. If he couldn’t have prepped for STEP independently, what chance does the average reasonably talented pupil have?

It is a lot worse than ‘somewhat sad’ that all pupils do not have access to the same quality of teaching that is offered by @Pythag’s school and that DH had, and it is not inevitable. That so many in the UK apparently agree with @Pythag’s statements on these counts is shameful.

Many countries do better.

I know I am labouring this point, but while it is definitely true that MFL has gone missing in schools (and I have an interest here: while I am a maths teacher I have worked overseas in a foreign language, did two languages to GCSE, did a language A-level) I don’t think it is the case that further maths has gone missing in many schools at all. It just never was available at certain schools in the first place. On the contrary, given the gradual increase in students taking both maths A-level and further maths A-level nationally, I wonder if some schools are making it available for the first time?

I also am not sure if I completely agree with you that it is a shame further maths is not taught in every school: to me it is more important that it is available to every able pupil than available in every school. As I have mentioned, in my own town it is not taught in every school, but it is effectively available to able pupils in the town because pupils will transfer to my school in the sixth form specially to be able take it. I see there being some teaching and learning efficiencies in pooling further maths in one or two school in a town (which then makes it easier for us to do Oxbridge prep) rather than every school trying to do it (some of them having very tiny classes, timetabling difficulties…)

Like your DH, I also studied at Oxbridge and like your DH, I would also partially credit my secondary school (a state grammar) for pushing me! Again, I am not disputing the difficulty for a bright kid with poor teaching getting into Oxbridge. It is worth noting, though, that state school entrance to Oxbridge is increasing, so the trend is a positive one rather than a negative one?

I am also not convinced that international comparisons are completely helpful here (in that our university system is quite different from many other countries).

In terms of teaching foreign languages, in particular, it is not realistic to expect countries where everyone speaks the global lingua franca to teach languages in the same way where they don’t. And in terms of maths teaching, which countries did you have in mind? My view is that the teaching and learning of maths has improved in England over the last decade and hopefully this trend will continue. The maths A-level that I teach is more rigorous than the maths A-level I sat in the 90s! Of course, it is not as good as in a few East Asian countries.

I would also add that one of the (many) reasons for the decline in MFL at A-level is probably the success of STEM at A-level. All these extra students wanting to study maths would previously have been doing something different (sometimes languages).