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Durham - deeply disappointed child - any admissions insight

662 replies

albertandlilylight · 30/03/2023 23:29

First choice university by a mile and really really wants to go there and college system would suit very well. 43 (IB) in predicted grades, am told by school very good school reference and personal statement. However, got an offer for a course did not apply for and for which has no interest. Don't understand at all. Worked so hard all the way through school, told hard work rewards and then this. Anyone got any insight to how Durham are offering and is there anything that can be done from here?

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Boosterquery · 07/04/2023 19:27

SoTedious · 07/04/2023 18:25

I honestly think DS would not have gelled at Oxford- if his experience would have been anything like this advert- it was definitely for the best that he didn't get in.

There don't seem to be the same kind of issues at Oxford though - their % intake of state school students is better than Durham's and they have done a lot of work which has improved those numbers over the last few years. Durham does seem to have a particular problem.

DD is eyeing up an attempt at Oxford for 2024 which is fine by me, I would be nervous about Durham though. (Partly due to some of these stats / reports, partly due to family experiences there.)

@SoTedious According to DD, the "vibe" of the colleges at Oxford varies considerably, so it's worth thinking carefully about which college to apply to. Some students get offers from a different college to the one they apply to, but you might as well help your chances by applying to a college you think you'd like.

Ooonafoo · 07/04/2023 19:32

Boosterquery · 07/04/2023 19:27

@SoTedious According to DD, the "vibe" of the colleges at Oxford varies considerably, so it's worth thinking carefully about which college to apply to. Some students get offers from a different college to the one they apply to, but you might as well help your chances by applying to a college you think you'd like.

How does anyone know what the vibe is before they go given you can’t visit them all and even if you did on open days there are no students there.

5cellos · 07/04/2023 19:47

I'm not sure it's helpful to throw the usual stereotypes around about 'private school students' and 'state school students'. DS is at Cambridge and there are people from all walks of life. Sharing his kitchen was a boy from a farm in Wales, people from London and all over the U.K., China, Switzerland - all types if school. Nobody cares.

You can't possibly measure 'who does better' at uni according to the sector if school they attended. Better in what way? Contributing in tutorials? Data analysis? Writing dissertations? Exams? Organisation? Avoiding mental health issues?

He says there were a few in the first week who were making a big scene about how they got in from state schools etc etc - only to then reveal they actually went to grammars! He has met one who went to Eton who is lovely. He's met far more who went to Brampton Manor and they are also lovely. Nobody cares about schools - they are all just amazed they got in mainly and trying to make the most of it in their own way. There are also a lot of ND people at Cambridge. It's not a place for being 'rah' and showing off. Everyone is different and from all over the place and why wouldn't they be?

carben · 07/04/2023 19:54

Daughter is in first Yr at Oxford from non-selective state. She is loving it. Working hard and drinking a little bit too much. There's a sense of we got here - let's make the most of it and why not.

LockInAtTheFeathers · 07/04/2023 19:57

Another anecdotal experience here but I went to Durham not too long ago. I had a great time, made some fantastic friends and didn't experience any prejudice or find it difficult to fit in. I'm from a working class background with a POLAR4 quintile 1 postcode and parents who hadn't been to university, and am state educated (albeit grammar). There were a few moments where I felt a little different to some, such as when my housemate was showing me the form to pay our rent and said "Put your parents' bank details here" and was Shock and Confused to learn that the rent was actually coming from my bank account rather than my parents'! These moments really were rare though and no malice was meant, and I would hate for someone from a working class background to think it's not for them purely because of their background.

boys3 · 07/04/2023 20:02

SoTedious · 07/04/2023 15:33

Oh I found that info: 7.6% from low participation neighbourhoods for Durham. Comparing with other northern universities (as I think distance from home tends to be a factor and the south tends to have fewer of the lowest POLAR4 postcodes), they are worse than everywhere except RNCM. Lancaster, York, Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Newcastle, Sheffield and Nottingham all do better.

@SoTedious there is a bit more too it than that though

The Durham figure is little different to many of the higher-tariff unis in the "North" - which to me does not include the East Midlands. 😀

and is above its benchmark figure, although digging deeper into the HESA stats once the benchmark is location adjusted it is below.

Across the board widening participation at the better unis is clearly an issue, so in this instance, unlike some of the other metrics, singling out Durham as being specifically shit is not wholly aligned with the evidence.

Durham - deeply disappointed child - any admissions insight
Durham - deeply disappointed child - any admissions insight
ProggyMat · 07/04/2023 20:09

boys3 · 07/04/2023 18:05

as compared with others

Oxford is about 70:30 ‘state:private’ intake but has only approx 17% intake from households flagged by ACORN and IMD measures- regardless of the sector the entrant was educated in.
Do you have any stats that show other universities in this light and even better would be stats that show the percentage of intake that are in receipt of the maximum loan per University?

Socrateswasrightaboutvoting · 07/04/2023 20:10

KittyMcKitty · 07/04/2023 17:01

I think much of what we see in places like Mumsnet exemplifies the prejudices and discrimination in our education system.

People who chose to send their children to private schools do so because they feel it buys them privilege and places them ahead of others. In simple terms that is the reason for doing so - to buy an advantage.

many people chose not to do this as they feel it is wrong. Even more people have no choice as they can’t afford it - even with the “sacrifices “ often talked about here.

As I’ve mentioned upthread there are two elements to working towards a more equality in our higher education system.

One is of course widening participation / contextual offers which has been discussed far more eloquently by others.

The other is the reality of a situation like Durham with its 40% private schooo intake. It would be interesting to see the % of grammar vs comps broken down in the state school figures. This really high % serves to actively put off some state school pupils from applying - if you look at an institution and cannot see it reflecting the experiences of people like yourself then that will put many people off from applying and conversely favour the more privileged groups. So achieving higher education institutions which properly reflect our society is more then just contextual offers.

This conversation was specifically about Durham - my dd - state school - is desperate to go there so I’m not slagging the Uni off but there are some serious areas / concerns it needs to address more robustly then it has preciously.

This gives a good idea of how disproportionate the intake is in some departments:

https://www.dur.ac.uk/resources/student.registry/statistics/summary/1.11school/201-11.pdf

Agree @KittyMcKitty I think you are right about prejudices and about the buying of advantage. Thanks for the link it makes for an interesting read.

Itsmebutnotme · 07/04/2023 20:24

Interesting

boys3 · 07/04/2023 20:24

I'm not sure it's helpful to throw the usual stereotypes around about 'private school students' and 'state school students'.

You mean you'd rather gloss over the inconvenient truths. Whether you like it or not they remain core widening participation metrics.

Whilst your Cambridge anecdote is interesting, it is just an anecdote. The plural of which is not data.

University of Cambridge - undergraduate students. Of the c.80% who are home students.

95% from England. 2.7% from Wales. Even smaller percentage from Scotland, and smaller again from Northern Ireland.

of that 95%

Just over 50% from either London or the South East

Another 15% from the East of England - more Herts, Essex, Cambs than Norfolk or Suffolk

Which leaves the other 1/3 from the other six English regions combined.

Hardly an evenly balanced melting pot.

The figures for Oxford are little different beyond a marginally higher SW representation as compared with the East of England for Cambridge

Similarly Imperial; LSE; UCL; Kings - even more "English" in terms of UK students; and more heavily weighted again towards London and Home Counties.

boys3 · 07/04/2023 20:32

ProggyMat · 07/04/2023 20:09

Oxford is about 70:30 ‘state:private’ intake but has only approx 17% intake from households flagged by ACORN and IMD measures- regardless of the sector the entrant was educated in.
Do you have any stats that show other universities in this light and even better would be stats that show the percentage of intake that are in receipt of the maximum loan per University?

there's a whole raft of stats on the HESA website. Although I've not seen maximum loan specific stats. Whilst I've not actually looked I would be pretty confident in stating really not very many for the higher tariff unis.

Piggywaspushed · 07/04/2023 20:41

I think it's great that people say their DCs don't talk about what school they went to. But I also find it odd. Within days of starting uni I knew where everyone went . I could just be nosy. My friend was also overtly snubbed for coming from the 'wrong' St George's. Three young women literally turned their back on her. At my Oxford interview, everyone talked about their schools. DS1 knows where all his mates are from and went to school (he's at a uni with vanishingly few private school students) and DS2 knows where all his mates, and his flat went to school.... it's quite normal to know these things. Ice breakers.

What never happened to me was the experience of having so many people from a well known school that they took over the place. I have heard of that at some unis or at specific halls/colleges.

PhotoDad · 07/04/2023 20:44

@Piggywaspushed My DD is hopeless with places and has no idea about school reputations. She told me that her best friend is from Dorset. Turns out, on meeting her, it was Dover! Well, they're both "doon south" to us.

boys3 · 07/04/2023 20:45

In the interest of proving a balanced view of Durham moving on from the Graun 2 years ago.

Durham undergrads - UK domiciled - around 77% of its full time undergrads

UK split

95% from England - pretty much the same proportion as Newcastle. Wales again with a slight edge for the remaining 5%, and then Scotland and N.Ireland evenly split.

For our huge English majority

1 in 5 from South East

17% from London

12% from East of England.

So once again around 50% from the Home Counties.

Around 10% for each for North-East; North West; and Yorks and Humber. Once rounded up not too far off another 1/3 of students.

Leaving 7%, 6% and 5% for the South West; East Mids and West Mids respectively.

Piggywaspushed · 07/04/2023 20:54

I don't think DSs know the schools by reputations - they just know the schools, although cricket playing may make them aware of more public schools, I guess.

5cellos · 07/04/2023 21:05

I'm not disputing your stats boys3, but it's not surprising that larger numbers of students will come from the most densely populated areas. The population of Scotland is comparable to West London, for instance. It's not surprising many less come from Norfolk / Suffolk because these are quite low population densities. I think over a third of England's population live in London or the SE. So less than 50% sure, but it's all relative and there will always be more children applying from certain areas.

It's maybe more relevant to look at the stats on the Cambridge and Oxford websites which state admission rates (rather than numbers). I seem to remember that the area with the highest proportion of students achieving As and A star grades at A-level was SE England (just under 10%, if I remember rightly). Northern Ireland also had one if the higher rates. London was quite a high rate (but obviously London is a more mixed demographic with greater extremes). Scotland had the lowest rate at about 4%.

As well as WP, Oxbridge (not sure about Durham) have regional targets. For instance, if x% of children scoring the top grades come from the NE, they are trying to reflect this in their intake.

ProggyMat · 07/04/2023 22:21

boys3 · 07/04/2023 20:32

there's a whole raft of stats on the HESA website. Although I've not seen maximum loan specific stats. Whilst I've not actually looked I would be pretty confident in stating really not very many for the higher tariff unis.

So, from the data on the HESA website do you any graphs to show how many entrants at higher tariff unis come from household’s that are flagged for ACORN/IMD?
IMO the stats on SFE maximum loans percentage ought to be shown as I think that would ‘paint a different picture’

Itsmebutnotme · 07/04/2023 22:32

5cellos · 07/04/2023 19:47

I'm not sure it's helpful to throw the usual stereotypes around about 'private school students' and 'state school students'. DS is at Cambridge and there are people from all walks of life. Sharing his kitchen was a boy from a farm in Wales, people from London and all over the U.K., China, Switzerland - all types if school. Nobody cares.

You can't possibly measure 'who does better' at uni according to the sector if school they attended. Better in what way? Contributing in tutorials? Data analysis? Writing dissertations? Exams? Organisation? Avoiding mental health issues?

He says there were a few in the first week who were making a big scene about how they got in from state schools etc etc - only to then reveal they actually went to grammars! He has met one who went to Eton who is lovely. He's met far more who went to Brampton Manor and they are also lovely. Nobody cares about schools - they are all just amazed they got in mainly and trying to make the most of it in their own way. There are also a lot of ND people at Cambridge. It's not a place for being 'rah' and showing off. Everyone is different and from all over the place and why wouldn't they be?

DD is state educated, we could have gone private but chose not to, nor are we widening participation. Our friendship group is split between those DC's went private and those whose DC's went state. In the last 12 months DD looked at Durham. It made a strong impression but not the best impression. When we arrived in Durham the first students we met were handing out the student newspaper. They were helpful and normal, and a pleasant surprise, given the stereotype associated with Durham. We looked at a couple of colleges in the town. The impression was very much middle to upper middle private school alumnae and not inclusive. Our guide was polite but not engaging. The message seemed to be we (colleges) are old, very much sought after and if you are lucky enough to get in to this college there are x number formal dinners per week on a first come first served basis. By this point we were regretting visiting, but on we pushed. We walked to the colleges on the hill, which were much further than we thought. The students here created a much better impression. They were engaging and talked about what they enjoyed about being at Durham, what made it great. Even an attempt to address the stereotypical views that people have. A big contrast to the town. They almost persuaded us that sharing was not that bad. I wished we had seen these first, it might has lessened the 'them' and 'us' feel.

The Economics lecture we sat in on was an eye opener. The lecturer, was deeply uninspiring. His attitude was somewhere between I am here because I have to be and I don't need to sell because this is Durham. He was asked if were any plans to change to course to a BSc. His response was a effectively 'we could be a BSc if we wanted to, and we'll probably do that do that at some point'. Okay... A on switched lecturer of Economics would surely speak to the benefits of the structure and content of the course at Durham and why it being a BA did not diminish the course in any way, but no. He then handed over to a student for a Q&A session, leaving the room as quickly as he could and certainly before anyone could ask any other questions of him. The lecture was not helped by some of the worse advocates for fee paying schools I have even seen. I say that as someone who lives in an area serviced by a number of good private schools. It looked like only one of them was considering Economics the others had just come to sit with him. He was sat toward the front with one of his friends sat next to him and another sat a level down, directly in front of him. All three about three and four rows from the front, directly in front of the lecturer. Throughout the lecture the one in front was turned around chatting to the other boy that did not look like he was considering Economics. To make matters worse about twenty minutes from the end another of the friends turned up, walked bold across the lecture room, sat down with his mates and proceeded to show them things on his phone. After the lecturer left the one who was considering economics monopolised the student, to the extent that those with DC's waiting to ask questions gave up and left.

We ate in the town before leaving. I got to enjoy a nice bit of racial profiling with my gourmet burger as we watched numerous tail coated young men and ball gowned women head out for what I presumed was dinner. It was a surreal experience, and one I am glad not to have to repeat.

Everyone I know who has been there or whose DC's have been there loves its. We just didn't get to see or experience the Durham that they did. If not for the amazing students on the hill, it would tie with LSE for being the worse Open Day.

boys3 · 07/04/2023 22:49

The issue for me @5cellos is that their is disproportionate representation - for a whole host of complex, and often inter-related reasons. That is the current status quo; and whilst undoubtedly challenging I'm less inclined to accept that as a reason for not trying to tackle it.

As you quite rightly point out around 1/3 of the population, and equally so for the uni-age population too, live in London and the South East, so that level of representation at our best unis -ignoring for a moment travel / location and the fact that in reality we have a largely super-regionalised picture of attendance - would not be amiss. Being 50% higher than that perhaps in a more reflective society might lead to pause for thought. Followed by action.

London has had significant investment in its schools. The gap in 18 year olds applying to uni has widened dramatically - another reason for the over-representation. The gap between London and the North East was around 9% in 2006 its now 24% ; with North West 6% and now 18%; even with the South East a 3% gap is now 13%.

I would disagree with Norfolk and Suffolk though. Hertfordshire has around 10% more uni age population than Norfolk; yet almost 4 times more Cambridge undergrads come from Herts as from Norfolk. Again there will be multiple reasons for this - and again agreeing with you starting with A level results.

Frankly all a bit dispiriting on Good Friday.

boys3 · 07/04/2023 22:50

there not their. Someone remove the merlot please.

ProggyMat · 07/04/2023 22:51

PhotoDad · 07/04/2023 20:44

@Piggywaspushed My DD is hopeless with places and has no idea about school reputations. She told me that her best friend is from Dorset. Turns out, on meeting her, it was Dover! Well, they're both "doon south" to us.

Now then, surely as a dweller in ‘God’s allotment’ it’s ‘doon sooth’? 🤣
DDs Uni mate came oop north and stayed longer than arranged - not a problem to me as he’s lovely- in our ‘2 up 2 down’ terraced former ‘colliery row’.
Schools have been mentioned - no biggie as they are both where they are now regardless.
Vast difference in homes and indeed household incomes…

Shelefttheweb · 08/04/2023 00:41

ProggyMat · 07/04/2023 20:09

Oxford is about 70:30 ‘state:private’ intake but has only approx 17% intake from households flagged by ACORN and IMD measures- regardless of the sector the entrant was educated in.
Do you have any stats that show other universities in this light and even better would be stats that show the percentage of intake that are in receipt of the maximum loan per University?

Of those 17% from flagged households, how many were from white working class boys from seaside towns? As opposed to students who had access to schools like Brampton Manor Academy which sent 89 students to Oxbridge last year?

mybeautifuloak · 08/04/2023 01:15

albertandlilylight · 31/03/2023 17:01

I think the worst bit of it (for me anyway) is the perceived lack of transparency. Oxbridge has pre assessments, submitted essays, a full interview etc etc and by the end of that I can buy into the assessment of there being a more qualified/ better candidate, more suited etc etc. but as has been pointed out there are apparently more qualified /better suited candidates for this course. Based on what? The personal statement? Really? Because at 43 points, that's hard to beat by volume of students.
But it is what is and we move on. Again many thanks to you all for your thoughts.

43 points yes but in which subjects? And done Uni's prefer Alevels as they are fewer subjects but more in-depth than IB. And everyone applying to history at Durham will have predictions of a fistful of A*s

Puffalicious · 08/04/2023 01:59

highest proportion of students achieving As and A star grades at A-level was SE England (just under 10%, . Scotland had the lowest rate at about 4%

Maybe that's because we don't sit Alevels (apart from a v small number of privates) or have A*s.🙄. A little research would have told you this. We have a completely different educational system, we always have. Which is why Scottish universities have 4 year courses. FGS.

5cellos · 08/04/2023 07:38

Puffalicious - yes of course they don't do A-levels in Scotland, but they worked out the equivalent.

Durham - deeply disappointed child - any admissions insight