Durham - deeply disappointed child - any admissions insight

[albertandlilylight]

First choice university by a mile and really really wants to go there and college system would suit very well. 43 (IB) in predicted grades, am told by school very good school reference and personal statement. However, got an offer for a course did not apply for and for which has no interest. Don't understand at all. Worked so hard all the way through school, told hard work rewards and then this. Anyone got any insight to how Durham are offering and is there anything that can be done from here?

They are taking spaces, not just being provided access to them. If they didn’t take up the offer of the space then there wouldn’t be an issue.

Tbf, Scotland is a tricky one - equally qualified non-deprived Scottish students lose out to their English etc peers because of the cap and the low rate paid by the Scottish government. It’s not specifically a WP thing, more a Scottish vs RUK thing.

??? So it’s ok to offer places to widening access students as long as they don’t actually go??

The scheme is not taking places from people - I agree with @Socrateswasrightaboutvoting - if there is a problem it’s restrictions on the number of Scottish applicants (if I understand correctly) and that’s a totally different issue. Widening Participation offers still expect students to meet the entry requirements for the course.

It would perhaps be fairer to have a category of ‘fees paid by loan’ Scottish students, who could compete on an equal playing field with RUK students in Edinburgh / St Andrews etc, in addition to the capped number if ‘fees paid by the Government’ Scottish students, who could primarily be from WP groups.

Every institution will have a limit on places on a course. If one student gets a place then another student is denied. If a WP student gets a place then another student is denied. A student taking a place is taking it from another potential student as long as there are more applicants than places. This also applies to the world of work - when I take up an offer of employment, the other applicants get rejected. Some may have been rejected anyway, but one would have been offered the job instead. I fail to see why this concept is controversial? Whether it is fair is a different matter entirely.

In terms of WP being expected to meet the requirements for the course, for WP schemes these requirement differ to the requirements for other applicants - that is the point of them; to consider factors that prevented the applicant from achieving the same as a non WP applicant.

Yes this.

And yet another thread descends into a clash over perceived slights against private/grammar/state (delete as appropriate) schools.

Are people still on their high horses about WP when ACJane clearly and evidently did not even mention WP? Talk about misinterpretation! She only mentioned her own school back in the day (which happened to be private), as a reflection of how uni admissions have become more competitive over the decades. She was talking about admissions in general - that lots of children these days with top grades are being turned down - FROM ALL TYPES IF SCHOOLS - when back in the day, 4 A stars would probably have got students in anywhere. She did NOT put this down to WP schemes in recent years. She said nothing about anyone taking anyone else's places. Read it again. Where does she actually mention WP? At all?

There are countless incredibly smart A star students with a raft of extra and super curricular gems to their names who Oxbridge has too little room for now given the number of international students and the widening participation [WP] programmes.

From her post. Abbreviation in square brackets is mine, for clarity.

Here:

There are countless incredibly smart A star students with a raft of extra and super curricular gems to their names who Oxbridge has too little room for now given the number of international students and the widening participation programmes

hth

Apologies - I see what you mean. My eyesight is going.

Clearly it is a fact that if there are 3 spaces and 4 applicants and applicant 1 is excluded hten 2 - 4 have taken a place from applicant 4; just as if it were done simply on pure exam results the 3 who did the best in the exams would take a place from the one who didn't do as well.

However I have faith in the system.

1. If universities start excluding some of the best people they will go to other universities and get jobs fine eg none of my 5 private school educated children tied oxbridge as they did not think they could get in and thought it a lot of effort for a likely failure to get in - that is simply because only about a third of the girls at my daughter's school get to Oxbridge - one of the most academic girls' schools in the country in the private sector and even in that school most girls do not and never have tried for Oxbridge.
2. If universities let people in who are not really good enough (whether from state or private sector0 when those people get in the work place they won't get or if do get they will not keep jobs so the free market will out. It is a pretty pure lovely thing for many jobs. Also those universities will stop receiving applicants who are good and the universities will be damaging themselves.

@10nc How very 1984 of you 😂 Nothing to see here...

The thing is, when I was at a state school in the 90s, you certainly didn't need three of four A grades (no A stars then) to get onto humanities courses at places like Durham or Bristol. You could waltz in with Bs. I wrote my PS in about ten minutes in the school canteen. Things are certainly more competitive for kids these days - all of them. So much more is expected in terms of grades and 'super-curriculars.' This is not because of WP initiatives in recent years. It is just more competitive in general.

@albertandlilylight i hope you've got the answers to help your child without all these derailing posts

Lets call them 1, 2, 3 and 4. I would argue that 1, 2 and 3 didn't take the space from 4. It did not belong to applicant 4. Three spaces were up for grabs, 4 equally qualified applicants*, so the the allocator of the spaces will have to use another method to decide who to allocate spaces to. Someone is always going to lose out, even though they are good enough.

• I know some people don't like to see them as such but I am including widening participation as an equally qualified individual.

socrates explanation is fab - wp / contextual schemes are purely about removing barriers which prevent some applicants from being able to compete fairly. It is about removing inequalities and placing all applicants on an equal footing.

You could go further and say that WP is concerned with encouraging applicants from previously under represented groups from applying to certain institutions. My dd is in no means an under represented group - she is at a grammar school - when she told people she was applying to Durham they pretty much all told her “you know it’s really hard to get in” and “I don’t know if you’ll fit in there’s a lot of private school pupils there” - she seriously doubted if she was the right sort of person / worthy enough to apply there. If this is the reception a white middle class child in a selective school - so a student with many privileges (albeit with non university educated parents) gets then it doesn’t take much imagination to see how some students are made to feel when considering whether or not they will fit in a Oxbridge / Durham / St A / Bristol et al and how it must feel to apply to somewhere where you are very much the “other”.

I think its a bit silly that so many spaces require A Star tbh. It's also a shame that there are not enough good quality alternatives to University. Post 16 and post 18 needs a really good shakeup in my opinion.

And she didn’t talk about her school back in the day which happened to be private - she spoke about the - those rejected at her dc’s private school currently who she believes most would have got a place it there wasn’t WP.

“When I look at those who were rejected at my dc's (private) school, I would imagine in my generation most of them would have got a place.
I'm talking about very bright, very passionate about their subject and very personable kids.”

My question to her was was she surprised that there were very bright, very passionate and very personable kids outside of private schools?

🤣🤣🤣 I'm laughing because my DS is actually an Oxbridge reject 🤣. He's loving life NOT in Oxford.

This has got way out of hand.

I know incredibly clever kids from state and private schools alike.

I AGREE with WP. The closed shop from private schools to Oxbridge until the last decade or so was obviously wrong - deeply unfair on individuals and bad for society.

I do not assume any kids are smarter than any others just because they go to private school.

That would be really dim and prejudiced.

I see your point, but don't agree. I want ALL young people in Scotland to have access to free university education. I work with many kids who do qualify for enhanced access during to their SIMD (Scottish indicator of multiple deprivation), but also many who wouldn't due to working parents in a 'good' postcode, but are still low income and would find paying fees v difficult.

It's such a hard one, as you say too many Scottish universities tick the home student percentage as well as the WA percentage by offering all home student places to WA kids. It's just not fair.

My own DS got offers from all 4 Scottish unis- inc Edin and St As- but that wasn't reflected amongst his peer group at all, some of whom struggled to get 2 offers despite a clutch of good results.

I don't know how to solve it.

@Puffalicious it is all very well saying that you want all young children in Scotland to have access to free university education but reality has to be considered. In a situation where overseas students are contributing significantly financially, in a capacity constrained situation those economics are always going to squeeze home places as the books have to be balanced. Factor in a strong commitment to WP for home places (which I do support) and you have a system where non-WP DC are potentially just pushed out. Forgive me if I am being over-simplistic but would a honed means tested system for allocating help with student fees not be preferable and spare cash be used for more home places? There are plenty of parents in Scotland who can afford it, just like they have to do in England.

I agree. It is crazy that Scottish universities end up with clearing places that a student from Doncaster can apply for but not a student Perth

I don't know how to solve it.

The Scottish government paying ‘home’ fees at the same rate as Scottish and English universities get from English students (ie the standard fees rate paid by student loan in England) would be the most straightforward, so there wasn’t an extra filter’ for Scottish students on how many the university can afford.

However, that would be extremely expensive. A graduated means-tested approach, much like the old ‘student grant’ system, with a sliding scale from ‘all Government paid’ to ‘all loan’, would be cheaper?