DS wants to drop out of Oxford - and it's largely my fault

[Distressedstudent]

My DS is a fresher at Oxford and not enjoying it one bit - the intensive work load, the lack of contact hours, the general 'nerdiness' of it. He had wanted to go to York but, as he was predicted (and got) 4 x A star, we urged him to apply to Oxford (where we went - he had no intention of applying) and then, when he got his offer, to firm it. He very reluctantly agreed after talking to his teachers who said he'd be nuts to turn down Oxford, even though his heart was set on York.

He sees his friends from school having a blast at other universities whereas he has his nose to the grind at Oxford. He is now planning to see his Director of Studies and to see if York will take him from September (to read the same humanities course). He is not interested in my advice as DH and I 'got it wrong' and gave him 'duff advice' (his words).

I am not sure if I am up to replying to anyone kind enough to offer their thoughts because I feel so miserable/disappointed/guilty on his behalf.

it will be ok. oxford isn't a great environment for everyone and yes he would be better off moving. I was in a similar situation but was persuaded to stick with it, and ended up with a 3rd class degree which was a bit of an embarrassment all round. I would have been much happier if Oxford had never been pushed at me, and I'm sure I would have got a better class of degree with a syllabus that was more suited to my interests (only 10% of my final degree mark was in the area of my subject that I was really interested in, and I got a 1st class mark in that one unit, whereas degrees elsewhere were often 40% or 50% content in that area). let him know you will be loving and supportive whatever he decides and you will help him in whatever way he needs.

Your poor son, must be horrible feeling lost. He's only been there what 3/4 months though. Don't lots of students struggle at lots of unis in the first few terms? He does sound like he's being a bit defeatist as well. As others have said, there will be bars and clubs and partying and activities happening at ALL universities, including Oxbridge, he maybe just hasn't found what he likes yet.

Can he apply to York for September without sacking off Oxford and then see how he feels in the summer. Give it his best go in the meantime. That's how I'd approach this, and cpusnesl my kids - keep your options open. He might feel differently by the end of the year.

My DC decided not to apply to Oxbridge. I think it's a shame but it's her life and she's the one living it. She knows where she'll thrive and a third or 2:2 from Cambridge isn't as good as getting a Ist from another RG university. I suppose if you want to get into politics or do law, Oxbridge is a good place for networking. It's all about who you know, rather than what you know in those areas!!

I have family members who went to Oxbridge and they were all very academic but didn't fit in and felt suffocated by the traditions and public school networks. My grammar school educated dad coped by throwing himself into the work and getting a first but he is pretty anti social and he ignored the public school kids in the end. I think it all depends on the student and what they want from the experience. It's not for everyone and there are other great RG universities. My father said he would have been better off at Manchester or Imperial to do his STEM degree.

Smarthome - that's good advice. I should reread the OP's original post - it is early days and things might get better for him, or maybe he realises he won't be able to stick it out ..

I think he’s sounding very sensible about it, if he can stick in till the end of 1st year then move to York where he might be happier I would be all for it.
My son thought about applying for Cambridge but after going to an open day he very quickly realised it wasn’t for him. Oxbridge is very different to other unis and it isn’t for everyone.

In my experience though as an academic and tutor, students seem to be saying they have a lot of MH issues, but these don’t always seem to be borne out in practice, apart from a lot more applications for exam adjustments and so on.

I’d be interested to know how you make that assessment though? Genuine question. Not being snippy.

DH and I both went to Oxford. I loved it but did the wrong subject, DH hated it and should have gone to Manchester. Neither of us did our best there or in life as a result. He's tried it and doesn't like it and the Oxbridge atmosphere isn't for everyone. Let him move.

@tortoiseshellpeppershoes you say "In my experience though as an academic and tutor, students seem to be saying they have a lot of MH issues, but these don’t always seem to be borne out in practice, apart from a lot more applications for exam adjustments and so on." What specifically do you mean by 'borne out in practice' as this seems to determine whether the MH issue is serious or not?

@Distressedstudent I think there are so many positives to take from your son's experience at Oxford in that he tried it and knows it's not what he wants and so there can be no "what if" down the line. Better to have that fresh start at York. My sibling went to Oxford and loved it but it was very different to my university experience at a RG. I also had a professor who had gone to Cambridge for his first degree, stuck it out but hated it and had been in lectures delivered by Watson and Crick (DNA Gods!) he had done his PhD elsewhere and followed a very successful academic path.

Does he plan to try to finish the year or leave sooner?

No point beating yourself up about it, I would view it like this: if he hadn’t gone to Oxford you (and he) would always have wondered what it would be like if he had. This way you have all had chance to see it’s not for him, and there is still time for him to get the best out of York, without the FOMO you would have had if he had not at least tried Oxford.

Lots of people leave Oxford courses every year for other places, it’s an idiosyncratic experience and not for everyone.

I went to Oxford and loved it at the time, include the cachet of the intensity of the work, but in hindsight it mainly trained me to be a workaholic, something I have spent the last few years trying to undo. I’m not sure I’ll be encouraging my children to go there unless it is their dream, in which case they’re much more likely to thrive.

Reading with intrigue

@Xenia. I know, but Oxford has a lower number of students compared to quite a lot of universities (not sure what the undergrad/postgrad split is though).

I agree with a lot of what @goodbyestranger

It’s only mentioned when requesting exam adjustments or extended deadlines, and never in any other context; student doesn’t take up any other welfare or counselling provision, or additional support; always says they’re absolutely fine and don’t need any help; and there’s never any other impact or mention of it in any other aspect of their studies.

We normally have a lot of academic and pastoral contact with students with serious issues, and we go to huge lengths to help students who are struggling for any reason, be it academic or personal. But aside from those students, there is definitely an increase in anxiety that only ever appears in the context of asking for special exam/deadline treatment, and never at any other point.

But aside from those students, there is definitely an increase in anxiety that only ever appears in the context of asking for special exam/deadline treatment, and never at any other point.

Don't you think this might be due to the fact that far more young people go to university and/or due to widening participation?

There are far more students with these issues who go to university now who simply wouldn't have in the late 1970s for example.

And by the way, the applications for special exam treatment tend to get granted, as universities are making a hell of a lot of allowances for any student request post-Covid, because we recognise that that cohort have not had the usual school experience. But there is definitely a big hike in expectations of lots of automatic allowances for very nonspecific reasons since the lockdowns, which universities are all trying to get a handle on to try to get things a bit back to normal with the following cohorts.

This has tended to go along with a lot of discourse in the ether/social media about mental health and anxiety, which is also pathologising normal student experiences like learning good work and time management, dealing with exams and deadlines, normal expectations of speaking up in seminar discussions, and so on.

In my experience, most of the student cohort are just as resilient and capable as they ever have been; the difference is that they tend to talk about themselves as if they’re not. So: lots of coming to see me saying they can’t do things that they are actually managing to do perfectly well. Lots of social contagion around this; and lots of talking endlessly about it even when we are endlessly reassuring them that they are actually perfectly competent and doing absolutely fine!

NB - I’m not of course talking about the minority of students who do have significant issues, which are a different matter.

Please support him in leaving. Awful place.

No, because it wasn’t happening to even remotely the same extent five or seven years ago. There’s definitely something in the culture of this cohort - it started changing even before Covid.

(The above is not limited to Oxbridge by any means, by the way - it’s sector wide at the moment.)

Thank you @tortoiseshellpeppershoes for taking the time to answer so fully. That's really interesting to read.

Really interesting tortoiseshellpeppershoes. I was astonished - seriously astonished - when I learned of the stark difference in requests for extra time in exams at our (grammar) school compared to the independent sector generally. It smacked of being industrial in the independent sector. Yet one has to question whether kids at indies are disproportionately more likely to suffer from SpLDs. Or, obviously, and very frustratingly, whether parents with the means to get private diagnoses are simply buying advantage.

Yet more advantage that should probably say.

The number of MN posters with kids at private schools and extra time in exams astonished me in parallel.

There is a high likelihood he can transfer if York has the space, I've known more than a few that have transferred from oxbridge to other universities including York, Birmingham, Leeds, Manchester and Sheffield.

I hope you've learnt your lesson. Oxbridge is INTENSE, lots of people that had attending oxbridge as their dream haven't been able to handle the reality. You've got to really want to be there to have a hope in hell of managing and that wasn't your son. York is still one of the best unis in the UK, why did you have such a problem with it?

If you were offered a job now, same pay, but expected to put in double the effort and hours, more responsibilities and pressure, next to no fun time, and had to stick it out like that for 3/4 years but you'd have a chance at a better job afterwards in the end. Would you take it? Because that's what you just pushed your son to do at only 18.

@Distressedstudent honestly, I think you're being too hard on yourself. Your DS could have stuck to his preferred choice of York. He did not have to be swayed by your advice, even if persistent. He ultimately choose to take the direction you recommended rather than stand firm on his choice. Part of life growing up is learning to make your own choices and to stand by them.

To give you an example on a lesser scale, my DD just selected her GCSE. I really want her to do Latin. It's academic, and will hold her in good stead. She's good at it and will do well. It's a pretty much guaranteed 8 or 9 for her. She needs 8s and 9s for her preferred career path. My DD however disagrees with my view and plans to take a different arguably also academic subject which she'll likely get 8/9 in too - it is not as 'hard' as Latin though.

Her mind was set and she can articulate rationale reasons as to why. Cajole and attempt to convince her otherwise as I did, I could not persuade her to go with my choice.

Another example, my youngest brother was also a straight A* A level student, he wanted to go to Cambridge.. everyone at his school wanted him to go to either Oxford Oxford as his school prided themselves on always having their brightest student go on to do Natural Sciences at Oxford. He applied to both and received 2 unconditional offers one from Oxford and one from Cambridge both for Natural Science. He went to Cambridge to do Natural Sciences, his choice not everyone else's. No one could convince him to go to Oxford..

I went where my parents thought was best not where I tentatively thought would be best for me - and had a miserable time. I didn't have the confidence to make my own choice. I left after a year and went to the uni I'd originally leant towards.

To give you an example on a lesser scale, my DD just selected her GCSE. I really want her to do Latin. It's academic, and will hold her in good stead. She's good at it and will do well. It's a pretty much guaranteed 8 or 9 for her. She needs 8s and 9s for her preferred career path. My DD however disagrees with my view and plans to take a different arguably also academic subject which she'll likely get 8/9 in too - it is not as 'hard' as Latin though

I wish I had done Latin GCSE. If I had a TARDIS I would go back and choose it (I did music instead).

@Pinkyxx I would have liked DD to take French at GCSE, but I remember my mum making my sister and me take history O level (yes, we are that old). We both failed.

TBH I wasn't impressed by the teaching of MFL at her school, so I kept my opinion to myself and DD took something else instead and did very well.