Medicine 2023 Entry - Part 2

[opoponax]

Anyone out there with DC applying or reapplying for Medicine 2023, please join a friendly thread for mutual support and useful advice.

@MidLifeCrisis007 you'd need to stop the interest for a scaled repayment to work. As you can see from the thing I posted it starts at £82,000 ish and after 9 years, even paying it off as needed, it raises to £126,000. So every time you halved it, it would end up back where you started. And my DD has borrowed the minimum so for many many students it's a lot higher than this.

Thanks @NoNotHimTheOtherOne , that is interesting.

I still think a 3 year pre-clinical degree, with a postgraduate clinical doctorate would make sense, but that is from my perspective of 2 DSs who did not get in first time, so I think more should be given the opportunity to start, and during that first 3 years the medical schools can work out which ones will make the better doctors. It is really odd that 17 year olds are being interviewed for a "job for life".

@NoNotHimTheOtherOne thank you. It sounds logical, except how much of this classroom training is actually happening ? From my viewpoint the 4th and 5th years seem to get a lot of training on the wards, so doctors working and training at the same time. The 5th years are also used to train the lower years (for free). I know it's all due to lack of staff, but it's hard to see where the value for money is.
Coming out with £82,000 of debt doesn't seem cheap to me. Especially when her rich friends have no debt as parents have given them the cash. So she'll soon be doing the same job but be taking home less money than her rich mates as her SFE deductions will take a chunk. So the rich stay richer 😞. This is one reason many are off to Australia and New Zealand.

@Monkey2001 most of the 5th years I know are soooooo ready to leave student life. They want to start earning at 23/24. Making the degree longer would put some off I think. And these are all fantastic young people who have become fantastic doctors.

@Monkey2001 that is the calculator on SFE website ! So, yes, no pay rises included (maybe because the private sector haven't had one for many years), but it's a reality I'm afraid.

Public sector !

Think we all agree things need to change. Better pay, better conditions, better training (which needs more staff !), and less debt. Not much to ask 🥴

It makes it totally unrealistic though. It is simply not possible that in 10 years doctor pay scales will be the same as they are now. All models are just models, but you have to include an element of inflationary pay for any meaningful result.

Any doctor working full time without career breaks will pay the full loan off. Of course many will take career breaks for various reasons or choose to work part time, and they may not pay them off.

Re 23/24 year olds wanting to be in jobs, I get that, but I think that opening up the number of pre-med places to prevent the brutal pruning of applicants at age 17 would justify it taking 6 years for everyone. It affects boys more than girls as one of the reasons girls are more successful in medicine interviews is that they reach puberty earlier and therefore have an advantage in the sort of processing needed to succeed at interview for anywhere other than Oxbridge (a doctor who was involved in Admissions told me about that).

I am sure DS1, who will be 25 by the time he qualifies due to a gap year and a 6 year course would agree that he would like to be earning before that, but I think it would be all round fairer, and retention could be managed better, if the pruning happened later.

@Monkey2001 I really hope it is unrealistic as it depresses the hell out of me.

Maybe an increase in graduate places would be a quick fix that might help more get in? I do understand that boys tend to be less ready at 17, so having a funding system that made graduate medicine possible could work. But they'd need to increase those training posts to accommodate them - not like we don't need them now !
I don't think retention had anything to do with the age of application though. It's been pretty much the same for decades. Retention is down to being treated like rubbish and being worked into the ground. Same with nurses. Pay is one part of it, but the conditions are ridiculous. One F1 told me this week that if he calls in sick he can't take a sick day, he has to swap his shift. So you are never allowed to just be ill. A ST3 last year couldn't get the day off for their own wedding ! Gave 9 months notice but were just told no. Seems a bonkers way to run an organisation if you want to keep staff. But weirdly DD still keen to get started 🤷‍♀️

Love this lady .

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/28/hospital-patient-challenges-rishi-sunak-nurses-pay-catherine-poole?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

Made me laugh. Was the most polite telling off.

Bravo Catherine Poole!

Thanks so much @mumsneedwine and @Unexpecteddrivinginstructor this is really helpful.
I’ve spoken with ds about an offer from anywhere is a huge achievement. The only thing I suppose though is that he’ll be there living in the uni town for 5 years - 6 for Cambridge (and I assume Oxford). Christ’s (Cambridge) seemed incredibly nurturing too. So it kind of does matter in that sense?
Thanks again 🙏🏻

Yes, they need to go somewhere they feel that they will be happy and fit in, but at the moment with the BMAT he won't know before applying how likely he is to get a place, therefore to maximise his chances he needs to consider what his stats indicate in terms of where else he is most likely to get a place. It shouldn't be a place at any cost, he needs to be happy to spend five years there. He should want to go to Cambridge because he loves the specific course, not because he just wants to go to oxbridge.

He won't know where to apply to strategically until he has sat the ucat in the summer between yr12 and 13. It is though worth going to open days before that and thinking about what it is that he liked at Cambridge and where else he might be happy.

Just bought DS a smart blazer in preparation for interviews. Over the last 3 years he has spent so much time in the gym that his very nice suit was 3 sizes too small and had to be passed on to DS1! He is planning to keep working on his back muscles, so I expect this one will only last 6 months or so, then I think he can be responsible for buying his own smart clothes.

Medical schools should get UCAT scores next week, so in a couple of weeks things will start picking up on here.

5th choice offer. DD was very happy to get an offer, even if she won't take it.

@opoponax 😊 always nice to feel wanted. Only a few more weeks and the fun will begin 🤞🤞

@opoponax
Congrats ! Which university did your DD receive her 5 th choice offer from ? TIA

Newcastle Bio Med

@mumsneedwine it is nice to feel wanted, particularly when all their non-medic friends are getting offers galore at the moment. Reassuring to know that the UCAS process is working. Do you show your students their school reference? I don't think it is that important but DD didn't get to see it. I can't remember if DS got to see his or not.

@opoponax they are entitled to see it, can call UCAS and they will send it to her.

Thank you @Monkey2001 I am sure it will be fine but I thought at the time that she should have been able to have a glimpse of it. I asked DS when he called tonight and he said he got to read his through before submission. Different schools.

@opoponax yes. If they ask I always give them a copy of their reference. I never think it should be a surprise what I say.

I understand this thread is about med school entry but I strongly feel that I need to comment on the horrific conditions all the doctors, especially junior doctors , are currently working.
I work in a really busy department in a very busy hospital and it is so hard to attract, recruit and retain staff. I don't think it is fair on anyone to work in such conditions. My team routinely work 2-2.5 hours most days of the week, they are not paid for it! In spite of the consultants highlighting this and fighting for them to be paid for their overtime , it does not happen. They are asked to prioritise their jobs, leave the non urgent jobs for the next day and leave on time - it is not as simple as that. These young people are so hard working , conscientious, dedicated and they won't leave unless the work for that day is done and they know that patient's care suffer if they don't do what needs to be done. Their rota which needs to be European working time directive complaint is not always good for their social life. I say this as someone who worked and trained in the old system.
This is not sustainable and is not good for the well being of the workforce.

Although we need more doctors and nurses, I completely understand if they want to leave NHS. This situation is only going to get worse not better.

@ProfessorLayton1 I do worry about what lies ahead for both my DC although it is very early days for both, with one only at the application stage. @mumsneedwine it must be awful for you that your DD is already starting to experience this reality. It does make me angry that the system seems to go to such lengths to select extremely able, committed and caring DC only to push them to their limits and put them through a mangle.