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Medicine 2023 Entry - Part 2

1000 replies

opoponax · 21/09/2022 11:32

Anyone out there with DC applying or reapplying for Medicine 2023, please join a friendly thread for mutual support and useful advice.

OP posts:
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10
mumsneedwine · 27/10/2022 09:29

@Monkey2001 🤞🤞🤞🤞🤞 let's hope it's nice 'normal' year.

Africa2go · 27/10/2022 16:03

Is that a drop of about 2,000 applicants for medicine this year? Does that make much of a difference in the process overall - its still almost 27,000 for @ 10,000 places?

Thethingswedoforlove · 27/10/2022 16:13

Don’t think it is as many as 10 000 places…. I think they are capped at 7,500 unfortunately!

Africa2go · 27/10/2022 16:42

Ahh I had seen a higher number (maybe that includes international places) but just reinforces the point that its still ultra competitive!

Monkey2001 · 27/10/2022 16:59

26,820 applicants, of which 5,260 are EU/Int, so 23,600 Home applicants for around 7,500 places. They will make more offers than there are places as in general around 40% will miss the grades, so it could mean that over 50% of applicants will have offers this year, which is A LOT better than last year!

Scottish applicants are luckiest - 1270 applicants and most of the 1240 Scottish places are usually reserved for Scottish applicants.

It is mainly a relief that the rising trend has not continued this year, the total number of applicants is halfway between 2020 and 2022.

It will still not be easy, but it is better than last year

Unexpecteddrivinginstructor · 27/10/2022 18:46

Good for our dc this year but at the rate that the NHS is haemorrhaging staff they still need to increase the places and attract and retain new doctors.

stargate2020 · 27/10/2022 19:33

@Monkey2001

Are those figures combined medicine & dentistry ?

I seem to recall in an earlier year the stats were combined but I could well be imagining it

Monkey2001 · 27/10/2022 23:43

@stargate2020 good point, yes, it must include vets and dentists.

WhiteCarnation · 28/10/2022 08:25

Unexpecteddrivinginstructor · 27/10/2022 18:46

Good for our dc this year but at the rate that the NHS is haemorrhaging staff they still need to increase the places and attract and retain new doctors.

Absolutely! It's crazy. More doctors must be trained for much needed services. But I don't see it happening before 2024.

NoNotHimTheOtherOne · 28/10/2022 09:55

There's not much point in training more new doctors (at a cost to the NHS of well over £100,000 each) if ever-increasing numbers are going to leave shortly after graduating. Yes, we do need to train more doctors, but we have to address retention at the same time. If working conditions in the NHS - and the attitudes of government, media and patients - continue to deteriorate, the pipeline will become leakier and leakier.

The structure and content of medicine degree programmes also needs to change. Partly to make more clinical placement capacity available (by making placements more efficient) but also in recognition of the fact that the primary care system is collapsing and rapid adaptations are being made to how primary care is delivered to ensure patients continue to have access to GPs. We can't keep assuming students will go on to work in a system that is disappearing. The medical licensing assessment (MLA) is a massive step backwards in this respect, as it will make medicine degree programmes much less flexible and adaptable, and will punish innovation.

Many people have argued that nobody should study medicine straight after school. We can't select students robustly at that stage to ensure we only take people with the resilience and adaptability to work as doctors for several decades. Selection needs to be much more rigorous (and less focused on academic achievement) but we would never get away with doing this with 17-year-olds who are still at school.

mumsneedwine · 28/10/2022 10:19

To be fair, selection is not only based on academic achievement and is pretty robust. MMIs require a multitude of skills and much more emphasis is placed on softer skills. Resilience will be shown by completing the course !
The problem seems to be that because there are fewer staff on the wards the medical students get less training. 5th years being asked (well told) to be F1s is not ok. So students get fed up as training is not what they need, no one on the wards fault, they are all swamped. So they plan to leave as soon as they can. It's not really about money as the ones I've spoken to just want to be treated better. Days off honoured, shift patterns not 7 days on without a break (which is illegal anywhere but Wales but still happens). They want a say in where they will be working. They want to be treated like the educated grown ups they are. Not 'juniors' for years and years.
It is all a bit of a mess. Be nice if the Health secretary was a medical professional if some kind, so they understand the bonkers things that go on in the NHS.

Monkey2001 · 28/10/2022 10:20

@NoNotHimTheOtherOne I agree that it would be better if Medicine was a graduate subject or had a much bigger Health Foundation Year from which you could choose different routes. DC of 17 do not really know enough about life to decide what they want to do, and there are so many other allied health roles which they just don't know about.

I also think there should be an obligation to stay in the UK for a number of years or pay the true cost of the qualification if they want to work abroad - maybe the fees for medicine courses should be £30k pa, but NHS pays £20k of the loan on top of salary per year you work post qualification, or something similar to the way Welsh nurses are funded.

mumsneedwine · 28/10/2022 10:23

And if medicine is only available as a post graduate degree it will only be the preserve of the rich (again). Unless it is fully funded somehow. My DD has a student debt of over £80,000 - it breaks my heart that it will be hanging over her all her working life. Unless she sells her soul and does private work (she is an ardent defender of the principles of the NHS at the moment),

mumsneedwine · 28/10/2022 10:25

I am still at a loss as to how it costs £20,000 a year to train each student. So if year is 200 students that's £4 million ! They are mostly taught in large groups or on the wards - where does this money go ? Genuinely interested

Monkey2001 · 28/10/2022 10:25

@mumsneedwine the way inflation is going, £80k may feel quite small in 10 years time! Of course Medicine would need to be funded differently as a graduate subject, effectively A100 would disappear and all medicine courses would be A101, with funding at least as good as it currently is for A101.

NoNotHimTheOtherOne · 28/10/2022 10:27

I'm not sure graduate entry is the solution, although other options (e.g. structured healthcare work induction for a year) have major drawbacks for anyone who doesn't progress to a medicine or other healthcare degree. I agree if it were to be graduate-entry it would require proper student finance arrangements, with debt for first degree written off on completion of the medicine degree. Can't see it happening, though.

NoNotHimTheOtherOne · 28/10/2022 10:28

@mumsneedwine - Just about to go & teach some year-2 medical students. I'll reply re £200,000 cost when I get a chance.

mumsneedwine · 28/10/2022 10:34

@Monkey2001 not at 6% interstate rates it won't 🫣. This is the projected repayment, assuming she carries on the normal doctor pathway. It's horrific. And will never be paid off, so a bit stupid.

Medicine 2023 Entry - Part 2
mumsneedwine · 28/10/2022 10:36

@NoNotHimTheOtherOne thank you. Would love to know. Mine seems to be treated as unpaid staff a lot of the time.

WhiteCarnation · 28/10/2022 11:57

Interesting posts on making med post grad. DS is a dual US UK citizen. We talked about med school in the US. But since you have to pay for 4 years of undergrad before then paying for med school the cost was an absolute show stopper. So he is applying only in the UK. Law school is the same. I think it's great that students whoo know what they want to do have the opportunity to plunge right in here in the UK.

MidLifeCrisis007 · 28/10/2022 14:06

NoNotHimTheOtherOne · 28/10/2022 09:55

There's not much point in training more new doctors (at a cost to the NHS of well over £100,000 each) if ever-increasing numbers are going to leave shortly after graduating. Yes, we do need to train more doctors, but we have to address retention at the same time. If working conditions in the NHS - and the attitudes of government, media and patients - continue to deteriorate, the pipeline will become leakier and leakier.

The structure and content of medicine degree programmes also needs to change. Partly to make more clinical placement capacity available (by making placements more efficient) but also in recognition of the fact that the primary care system is collapsing and rapid adaptations are being made to how primary care is delivered to ensure patients continue to have access to GPs. We can't keep assuming students will go on to work in a system that is disappearing. The medical licensing assessment (MLA) is a massive step backwards in this respect, as it will make medicine degree programmes much less flexible and adaptable, and will punish innovation.

Many people have argued that nobody should study medicine straight after school. We can't select students robustly at that stage to ensure we only take people with the resilience and adaptability to work as doctors for several decades. Selection needs to be much more rigorous (and less focused on academic achievement) but we would never get away with doing this with 17-year-olds who are still at school.

What a brilliant post @NoNotHimTheOtherOne .

I feel very strongly about recruitment and retention in the NHS. I think we need to encourage people from all socioeconomic groups to apply for medicine/nursing and as such they need to be adequately funded in all years of their course. And once trained, they need to be incentivised to stay.

I wrote to Liz Truss when she was first appointed PM on this matter - complete waste of time that was. But I will also write to Steve Barclay and Rishi Sunak.

Med students and nurses need decent living allowances across all the years of their course - and the government must take urgent action on this or it will be squeezing out many potential students who don't have the financial support of their parents. And the student debt of doctors and nurses should be written off after 20 years if they stay working in the NHS. I proposed 25% written off after 5 years, 50% after 10 years etc. If trained nurses and medics move to other professions after 10 years, then they take half their student debt with them. That would surely incentivise them to stay?

In fact, no time to lose, I shall do a cut and paste job on my old letter to Liz now....

mumsneedwine · 28/10/2022 14:26

Proper funding would be nice. 5th years get £1,000 bursary and £1,900 student loan. Not sure how anyone is supposed to live on that. Fortunately my DD knew it was coming and worked since she was 16. And we manage to help a bit too.
She can't work this year as she's constantly on placement with weird and v moving hours.
I think the idea of the loan being paid off for every year you work in the NHS is a fantastic one. The debt is scary and horrible and having a way to get rid of it would be a massive incentive.
But better conditions are more important to sort fast. These young people might end up on opposite sides of the country to all their friends and their partners. They struggle to book a day off, if they are ill they are sanctioned and can fail their foundation year, yet they can be left with the bleep over night. Treat them well and they will stay. No one goes into medicine for the money (unless they are v misinformed).
I don't have an issue with school leavers going straight into a 5 year degree - they are 23 when they graduate so have had long enough to know if it's for them. Clinician placements normally start v early so they see what they are getting into.

Monkey2001 · 28/10/2022 14:27

@mumsneedwine that projection is fundamentally flawed as it assumes no inflationary pay rise.

I have done a quick model to show that an £80k loan would be paid back in 18 years based on current pay rates with 6% annual inflation, if interest rate stays at 6% (total payment £167k).

If interest rate is 3% higher than inflationary pay rise (6% inflation and 9% interest on loan) it takes 22 years and amount paid is £293k.

So they do pay a lot, but unless they take career breaks, most should repay it.

Of course they should be paid more, it is ridiculous that a consultant with 5 years experience as a consultant is paid the same as a newly qualified lawyer in London. I would favour proper pay over writing off loans if it was a choice of one or the other.

Medicine 2023 Entry - Part 2
Medicine 2023 Entry - Part 2
NoNotHimTheOtherOne · 28/10/2022 14:27

Okay, lunch time. Re how much it costs to train a medical student...

During the first couple of years at medical school (or three years in some six-year courses), medical students are mostly taught in the same facilities as other bioscience students, and often by many of the same staff, so the only obvious additional cost is the cost of running laboratories (similar to costs for other lab-based subjects) and anatomy facilities (massive cost). This is addressed by Office for Students (OfS) high-cost subject funding, through which universities receive a small amount of extra money from OfS in addition to the tuition fees paid by the student.

However, there are hidden additional costs even at this stage. Namely that a medical school requires some teaching staff and senior leaders to be medically qualified. Clinical academics cost much more than non-clinical academics, because medically qualified people just wouldn't do the job if they were only paid on basic academic salary scales: they would spend the time doing high-paid clinical work rather than lower-paid academic work. This is a relatively minor contributor to costs in early years but it's not negligible.

The big difference comes in the clinical years. Here, nearly all of the tutors for classroom sessions are either clinical academics (see above) or consultants/specialists with education programmed activities (PAs) in their job plan. A PA is a half-day of a consultant's time. In a teaching hospital - or, really, in any hospital that hosts students - a large number of consultants will have to have education PAs for them to teach students. These are paid on the same basis as the rest of their work, as they are part of their NHS contract. But, obviously, a consultant who is teaching isn't doing clinical work. So the number of consultants employed needs to be increased to ensure service delivery is covered. So the total number of education PAs, which will be several full-time consultants' worth each week, has to be covered by employing more consultants. A full-time consultant with a merit award might be earning on average around £125,000 pa (£2,700 per week) plus on-costs (employer NIC, empolyer pension contributions, etc.) of probably another £25,000 pa (£550 per week). Some consultants will be doing several education PAs in a week as they have roles like head of school, director of clinical skills, year lead, student support tutor, etc. You will also need to allow for doctors working at a slower rate while they have students with them on placement, although for year-5 students (and possibly year 4), some of this time is repaid by the students doing work like clerking patients and making initial assessments. Finally, if you have students in a hospital, you need teaching spaces. You need these anyway, for clinical staff's continuing professional development, but you might need more space or additional equipment. And you need libraries. Again, hospitals need libraries for their own staff but if they have undergraduate students they need quite a lot of resources that practitioners don't need. Many of the resources provided in the university library have to be replicated across multiple hospital sites. And you need administrative staff to co-ordinate placements, timetabling, etc., which are outside of the university's normal activity.

The money to pay for them comes from Health Education England (part of the NHS) via universities in the form of what used to be called SIFT (strategic increment for training) and is now called tariff payments. The medical school is allocated a certain amount of money depending on the number of students, with the assumption now that all are undertaking similar numbers of hours of placement. The basic payment is £30,750 per student per year ( bit less in GP), with additional market forces factor (MFF) payments where the costs are higher owing to higher salaries or higher costs of teaching space in trust (i.e. not university) buildings. So, over 3 years, this adds up to £92,250 per student + MFF.

So, when you add up contributions from student tuition fees (4 x £9,250), year-5 tuition fees paid by NHS (£9,250), OfS high-cost funding for clinical subjects (£33,000 across 5 years) and tariff (£92,250+), you get a minimum total of £171,500, with MFF added on to this. A bit less than £200,000 because the tariff calculations have changed this year and total payments are lower than in recent years. Still a big wedge, though. Of this minimum amount, the student pays £37,000 (21%), the OfS pays £33,000 (19%) and the NHS pays £101,500 (60%).

NoNotHimTheOtherOne · 28/10/2022 14:28

I forgot to include the cost of the NHS bursary. Obviously, this goes directly to the student, not to the trust, but it's still part of the total cost of training a doctor.

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