to reapply to imperial

[butterflyflutterby123]

Please read to the end, so sorry its long but very lost and need the advice. DD is 18, and applied for university this year, mechanical engineering degrees. I don't want to sound like a mum who thinks their child is the best and is totally naive, but she is incredible clever.

She has always been top of her class and way ahead of her peers (its been a learning curve to cultivate healthy friendships while being extremely intelligent - she goes to an all girls school, but clever girls are still not highest in the social pecking order 🙄). She got ten 9's and an a at gcse, and is now taking maths, further maths, physics and biology, she has already taken an epq and got an a (she did it on a history topic; she doesnt actually find sciences easier than arts, she loves them both)

there's the background, here's the story. she applied to 2 different imperial courses (mech and aero), ucl, bristol and kings. she wanted to apply to cambridge, but decided against it for financial reasons. she had an amazing ps and loads of work experience (inc 2 summer work experiences at engineering firms) and is predicted 4 a*s. she got invited to take the entrance exam for both. it was a very weird setup, they weren't really told what to expect or given past exams to practise. She fonud the mech one extremely easy and breezed through it (twice - she had to retake it when imperial had a technical difficulty...). she got invited for a mech interview. she was unprepared for the level of difficulty of the aero exam and wasn't asked for an interview. She's not too upset about the aero place, as she already decided she wanted the mech course. She had an interview which went really well. the examiner was very pleasant, and told her he could see she was very passionate and interested.

I'm so sorry to say, but uni rejections were never even on our horizon. I know it sounds horrible and arrogant, but it didn't cross our mind, she has passed every academic test with flying colours. she was very upset when she got rejected from the mech course. she eventually got feedback saying a. some other candidates did better problem solving then her and b. she didn't use a lot of technical language in the interview. This is upsetting because no.1 her interviewer didnt ask her any problem solving questions!! he focused entirely on her work experiences. also, isn't she supposed to get the technical knowledge in the course?

anyway, she has been very mature and philosophical about it. she got ucl, but she really wants icl because she can specialise in nuclear engineering in the 4th year of her MEng. she's not crazy on the idea of going through the whole application process next year on her gap year, but really wants to have a mech+nuclear degree. also, if she reapplies, she automatically loses her ucl place and has to reapply there too, and thats a risk (stupid ucas)

is ucl as good as icl?
is icl still a cold and lonely environment?
does having a year of nuclear help her get nuclear engineering jobs?
is it risky losing ucl?
any other general advice?
why did a 4 a* alevel and perfect gcse grade student with work experience, volunteering etc (objectively the perfect application) get rejected?

thanks for sticking with me <3

@ErrolTheDragon Ok so a student would still borrow more or less the same amount, but it’s treated as two loans to pay back simultaneously when you start working, ie more to pay each month? Good grief.

@SlightlyGeordieJohn
Imperial suits some engineers but not all. We have a number of first class engineering universities here. Cambridge and Oxford are General Engineering so they need to be approached with caution in this instance. If you look at Engineering consultancies, they have staff educated at many universities.

Regarding the interview, I’m not sure how the DD knows what other potential students were asked to do at interview. Was it chat afterwards? My DH, down the years, has interviewed loads of engineers. (Founding partner of a medium size consultancy). Some are natural problem solvers and are almost “born” engineers and others go through the learning process but don’t always apply it well to problems. Articulating what you know and how you would apply that to the problem is the key to engineering.

Some are natural problem solvers and are almost “born” engineers and others go through the learning process but don’t always apply it well to problems.

Yes. And that's why top grades are not the deciding factor. They're a prerequisite. That's why I think that interviews are a great way to assess potential students.

@butterflyflutterby123 I understand your need for answers. We went through something very similar, (and many other friends too with amazing, talented DC and stellar marks). At the end of the day, you will simply never know and you can torture yourself and DC with what if's. The fact that people are even trying to parse through what your child did wrong etc makes me laugh - how would a stranger know how your child performed in an interview (which is done by a human full of fallibilities and biases (not to say an AI would be better!!)).

I have been on the side of interviewing for applicants and I can tell you, it feels awful deciding between too equally qualified candidates and it can come down to as little as one tiny little thing that didn't click subjectively. And, I have made mistakes in my choices!

My DB works in tech and he tells me they beauty of STEM is that once your DC gets a foot in the door, and proves herself she will have more choice and range of jobs and where she got her qualification won't matter so much as her work track record. I'd personally accept UCL and maybe even consider doing masters in the US where she can widen her professional network - she might even be able to get funding through Fulbright for that. Good luck with your choices and try not to stress too much - frankly, there are loads of opps for woman choosing STEM careers these days, lots of organisations and networking and mentoring groups for women.

I do think in some instances changing universities for a Masters is a good idea, despite the cost. It looks like a proactive decision to undertake further study that really interests you rather than a 'I don't know what to do next so I'm going to stay on a year at a place where I feel comfortable'.

Obviously that isn't pertinent in the case of an integrated Masters – which a number of engineering courses are structured as – because the course is set up specifically for that.

Interviewees compare experiences after interview and, in great detail, on TheStudentRoom.

@Lentils I am sure we have all made mistakes but I am not sure what makes you laugh in my response to the OP’s request about possibilities? I mentioned that it was borne of my experience as an RG STEM admissions tutor. I did not mention that for our School’s Athena Swan Award we were commended for our research into unconscious bias during the interview process and the training we gave interviewers around this.

Given what the OP wrote about the feedback they got, a reasonable possibility is that something happened at interview. It is quite typical for girls to be given fewer problem solving opportunities than boys by male interviewers who conclude early in the interview that they aren’t up to much. Not saying that happened here but the possibility is consistent with the OP.

Agreed that success is the best revenge and there are many good paths forward.

This is sound advice I think.

There are lots of extremely clever kids trying to get into places like Imperial, they can’t all - it’s great she’s being mature about it. I am sure she’ll do well.

Thank you so much for all the help. It is a confusing time, and it's reassuring that so many people out there have had similar experiences. Exhausted now, but will be back on tomorrow with some more coherent replies 😋

Just to clarify it was 4 a stars prediction and a star at epq. I looked on my phone and it turned the stars into some weird italics ...

Also, what is this process of turning a MEng into an MSc? And isnt a MEng better for getting chartered?

Thanks 🙏

My DC is in the first year at Imperial doing aero. PM me

Also, what is this process of turning a MEng into an MSc?

Not sure what you mean, they're different things. As far as I know, most engineering students with the requisite grades on entry sign up for an MEng but can finish after 3 years with a BEng if they want. (Conversely students with weaker A levels who do well enough in the first year may be able to switch to the MEng, but that doesn't apply in your DDs case). Whichever type of undergrad degree they get, they might then want do an MSc or PhD - but I think it's less common for engineers to do this than it would be for scientists.

In the days when all engineering degrees were BEng/BSc a few did MSc after undergrad. DH had one friend who did. To be a lecturer. Everyone else worked towards Cgartered status. Therefore most didn’t do a MSc snd didn’t need to. Definitely no great need with a MEng. When a young person is employed as a Graduate Engineer, they should have a training contract which ensures they do the work, training and development necessary to get Chartered Engineer status. The majority now go the MEng route, then get Chartered. Occasionally some firms like a MSc if they recruit ready made specialists. However the whole idea of training to get Chartered is that you have a broad education and eventually specialise whilst working. For engineers being Chartered is the goal.You don’t need any education beyond MEng to get it.

For example. DH was BEng in Civil and Structural Engineering. His first job was designing motorways and bridges snd supervising on site. Got Chartered in both Civils and Structural. These days you tend to do one or the other. Most people specialise whilst working. It takes several years to get Chartered and for many employers, a MSc isn’t necessary. MEng is sufficient unless you want to teach or go into research.

You can usually move freely between a BEng and an MEng until sometime in Y3if you have decent marks.

However I have never heard of someone doing an MSc after MSubject. The course units you study in Y4 of the MEng are usually shared with the MSc students. The difference between the two degrees is that the MSc requires a thesis.

Usually students wanting the MSc world do the BEng. I have never heard of converting from MEng to MSc as that would leave you without an undergraduate degree.

It might even be slightly difficult to do an MSc after MEng because you will need to convince the new uni that the course units for the MSc are new to you. If you change areas (eg Mech Eng to Nuclear) this would be fine, although I think you might be overqualified.

I’m sorry your DD didn’t get the offer she wanted but for nearly everyone there comes a point where things don’t go your way for whatever reason. It may not be fair or it might. Loads of extremely capable students get rejected by very competitive courses.

our job as parents is to support our kids with recovering from set backs and positively finding a way forward. I have a DC on a STEM course at a much lower ranking university and they receive invites from employers on a regular basis as there is such a skills shortage.

You may find this thread interesting if you haven’t already seen it. It’s a rejected from Cambridge, has offer from UCL situation. The thread does turn into a private/state/Cambridge admissions policy debate though.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/higher_education/4546018-reapply-to-cambridge

Another current thread is about someone desperate to get into UCL but rejected from English so there is a lot of it about.

We are obviously looking forward, and trying to not to dwell to much on the last, and just figure out next steps from here.

dd says UCL and icl only offer MEng courses, so she's not sure if she would even get a BEng if she left after three years or would be left with nothing.

Dd said last night that she can't see why not to reapply. That its an opportunity that is there, so why not go for it and see what happens. She is aware that the risk is not getting UCL next year, but says she can't see any other reason not too, and it's a shame not go for the imperial opportunity. (NB she hasn't made a decision yet, she's waiting till she gets here results, and will think about this in depth, she's just turning it over in her mind.

Can you persuade her to consult with the admissions tutors at UCL about her plan? This would be to assess their view on taking a gap year. If they are fine with it, great. If they really do not like gap years she must consider the possibility that she will be left with nothing at this level.

As something of a possible counterweight to this, A Level grades will be moderated this year to a point (said to be about halfway) between 2019 and 2021 grade boundaries. So more lenient. If they revert to normal next year, the competition could be less fierce. But at the calibre of uni we are discussing it will still be very strong.

I thought these unis might only offer the MEng. It is an excellent degree. I would not worry about the likely misfit with the MSc.

That sounds reasonable.

If she feels there will be a "what if" she should try again, and make plans for an interesting gap year. She should be realistic about her chances. These courses, as she knows, are very competitive. It will also give her a chance to think again about her other choices.

I am not sure that there is an issue with maths. DD spent last year at Imperial, or rather in her bedroom, taking an intercalated degree in bio-medical engineering. (One of the other options within the engineering degree.) Though she is a medical student the course was run within the engineering faculty, and she was able to pick from a mix of third and fourth year courses studying alongside UG and Masters, including stand-alone Masters, students. She had also had a gap year so it was four years since her maths A level but, helped by a summer school course, she was able to keep up.

I also don't understand what you mean by "is icl still a cold and lonely environment?". DD found fellow students friendly and welcoming and indeed, despite not setting foot on campus till her graduation, she is still in touch with some. I think it depend on what you want from University. She found plenty of kindred spirits, who enjoyed sport AND science, so it was an easier social transition than her medical school (Bristol). Others will find the opposite.

If she is still undecided it is worth looking closely at the options and flexibilities offered by both UCL and Imperial. DD was offered both, and to be honest Imperial was a no brainer, both for the breadth of course and for their strength in the areas she was interested in.

Good luck. DD really enjoyed her time, and hopes she can find a medical career which will allow her to use her engineering skills.

FWIW for her gap year DD worked a ski season (see workaseason.com) and in an American summer camp (www.campamerica.co.uk), both of which were rewarding and a break from academic stuff.

Another option is to call up ICL admissions on results day and get through clearing.

I very much doubt that Imperial goes into clearing. Certainly not for engineering.

Some offer holders unfortunately don’t get the results they need, or make different choices, and there are spaces on results day. You need to call up.

Yeah ICL won't be in clearing honestly - unis over-offer as they know lots won't make the offer on results day.

From Imperial's FAQ 2021

"Imperial does not typically enter into Clearing, which is a UCAS process that lets you apply for a course which still has places for 2021 entry."

They tend to make high offers and so if they have available places, are more likely to look at those who narrowly missed their grades.

OP - you have had some very good information on this thread. However I think you and your daughter must consider that at interview other candidates were better - accept the outcome and move on. You seem quite determined to think that the interviewer was at fault. Your daughter needs to move on and take up her other offer - follow a different path to achieving her goal.

@butterflyflutterby123
I think DD doesn’t see the whole picture to be honest. She’s 18, why would she? However MEng is the only sensible course and BEng is not offered for good reason at these universities. As getting the degree and CEng is a long haul, I would honestly start now and not fixate on Imperial. It’s not worth wasting a year. It’s better to use a year after graduating to do a specialist course, if that’s what she wants.

Some 18 years olds do know what they want. And even if they may sound foolish to others, they are the ones who actually live the choices.

If she is staying in London a gap year is not a bad idea, providing a useful gap between school and University and meaning you start University with an additional year's maturity. Who knows if the current generation will ever get to retire, so they might as well have time off now.

Engineering threads on MN are odd. Engineering seems to have an infinite number of options. DD at 18 was very torn between engineering and medicine until she realised she could do both. OPs DD seems equally determined to specialise in nuclear. Friends of DDs similarly wanted EEE or robotics or automotive. If you know what you want to study, the course and the flexibility that course offers becomes more important.

(Curious Tizer...where would your DH recommend for, say, biomedical. Would he see a difference between UCL and Imperial. Ditto with nuclear. Or robotics.)

DC's school was very clear that those wanting to apply for very competitive courses should consider treating it as a two year process. If there are eight applicants to every place, at least seven can be expected to meet entry requirements. Acceptance or rejection can hang on thin margins, certainly if she was good enough for a UCL offer. No chemistry between interviewer and interviewee. Either or both having a bad day. A PS that did not follow Imperial guidance of what they want closely enough, so scored poorly. From observation it does appear that achieved grades count for slightly more than predicted grades, so many do get what they want second time round. Most of all it is her life. If she feels she might continue to think "what if" there is no harm in having another go. A friends of DS did this with Oxford. He did not get a place second time round, but at least he put that to bed and went on to excel elsewhere.

Imperial can be great for those student who think science is cool and who like to be surrounded by others, staff and students, who think the same.

MEng for those who will become Chartered Engineers is a different career path to Biomedical. If is not all about nuances of your degree or where you study. It’s about practical application and learning as a graduate engineer as you move towards chartered status. Nothing else much matters. A decent MEng opens all the doors.

MEng Nuclear Engineering is available at a number of places and there’s little evidence that Imperial is better in the world of work. That is, of course, what most engineers actually do. I really don’t think an 18 year old knows the ins and outs of engineering or a gap year would not be seen as an advantage unless it’s engineering design work. Which is unlikely.,