to reapply to imperial

[butterflyflutterby123]

Please read to the end, so sorry its long but very lost and need the advice. DD is 18, and applied for university this year, mechanical engineering degrees. I don't want to sound like a mum who thinks their child is the best and is totally naive, but she is incredible clever.

She has always been top of her class and way ahead of her peers (its been a learning curve to cultivate healthy friendships while being extremely intelligent - she goes to an all girls school, but clever girls are still not highest in the social pecking order 🙄). She got ten 9's and an a at gcse, and is now taking maths, further maths, physics and biology, she has already taken an epq and got an a (she did it on a history topic; she doesnt actually find sciences easier than arts, she loves them both)

there's the background, here's the story. she applied to 2 different imperial courses (mech and aero), ucl, bristol and kings. she wanted to apply to cambridge, but decided against it for financial reasons. she had an amazing ps and loads of work experience (inc 2 summer work experiences at engineering firms) and is predicted 4 a*s. she got invited to take the entrance exam for both. it was a very weird setup, they weren't really told what to expect or given past exams to practise. She fonud the mech one extremely easy and breezed through it (twice - she had to retake it when imperial had a technical difficulty...). she got invited for a mech interview. she was unprepared for the level of difficulty of the aero exam and wasn't asked for an interview. She's not too upset about the aero place, as she already decided she wanted the mech course. She had an interview which went really well. the examiner was very pleasant, and told her he could see she was very passionate and interested.

I'm so sorry to say, but uni rejections were never even on our horizon. I know it sounds horrible and arrogant, but it didn't cross our mind, she has passed every academic test with flying colours. she was very upset when she got rejected from the mech course. she eventually got feedback saying a. some other candidates did better problem solving then her and b. she didn't use a lot of technical language in the interview. This is upsetting because no.1 her interviewer didnt ask her any problem solving questions!! he focused entirely on her work experiences. also, isn't she supposed to get the technical knowledge in the course?

anyway, she has been very mature and philosophical about it. she got ucl, but she really wants icl because she can specialise in nuclear engineering in the 4th year of her MEng. she's not crazy on the idea of going through the whole application process next year on her gap year, but really wants to have a mech+nuclear degree. also, if she reapplies, she automatically loses her ucl place and has to reapply there too, and thats a risk (stupid ucas)

is ucl as good as icl?
is icl still a cold and lonely environment?
does having a year of nuclear help her get nuclear engineering jobs?
is it risky losing ucl?
any other general advice?
why did a 4 a* alevel and perfect gcse grade student with work experience, volunteering etc (objectively the perfect application) get rejected?

thanks for sticking with me <3

If is not all about nuances of your degree or where you study. It’s about practical application and learning as a graduate engineer as you move towards chartered status. Nothing else much matters.

There is an argument though to study a subject you like and take a course that you enjoy. Imperial is loaded with interesting research, with lots of different options. For a student who is studying engineering because they are fascinated by the subject and who welcome the idea of being surrounded by like minded people, Imperial can be a great experience.

If this is where OPs DD really wants to go, and if she recognises that there is a risk that she faces a second rejection, she should try. I accept that other Universities will get you to the same place career wise, if the aim remains becoming some sort of professional engineer. But who knows. Thinking of DCs friends who studied engineering, three are now taking PhDs, one is a teacher in an inner city school (a vocation discovered whilst volunteering) and one took a Masters in Design. University is the place to discover different avenues to explore.

@Needmoresleep I see a lot of merit in the first of your own two paragraphs just above. (I don’t think it is such a serious conflict with the quotation as it first appears, either.) I fully understand the appeal of Imperial!

But it can become a problem when young people think the intellectual vibrancy and community are to be found in only one place. I typically see Oxbridge rejects who feel nowhere else has anything to offer. I am a bit concerned that the same syndrome could be at work here.

Imperial may yet work out. But I wish the DD was taking some guidance from both UCL and Imperial on their views of a gap year. (I think the concerns are overrated but I am very much a minority.)

Likewise, I totally agree with your general sentiment about university @Needmoresleep and the opportunities it affords, but I do think it's worth reiterating that OP's DD has a place at UCL. This is not some kind of booby prize, it's a world-class university which is only a few places behind Imperial on any rankings list, even for engineering. At the risk of pointing out the bleeding obvious, it's also in London so that's no different.

I very much doubt in 4 years' time any prospective employer is going to overlook someone with a good degree from UCL because it isn't Imperial. I think there's a danger here of getting too hung up on a name.

I don't disagree with either of you, and indeed have often argued strongly against, say, thinking an Oxbridge rejection is the end of the world.

What I am trying to say, though clearly not well is that engineering is a subject that can be enjoyed for its own sake. MN bizarrely can be at its most patronising when discussing STEM, particularly engineering. It is as if engineering is simply vocational degree and a prelude to 45 years sitting comfortably in the home counties with a round of golf on Sundays. Discussion is always about MEng and chartered status. Unless of course it is biomed, which is somehow different. (Plenty of mechanics in an artificial shoulder.) Different Universities and different courses will offer different things. Go to Bristol and you can wear wavy garms and pretend you are studying Eng Lit and Drama. Go to Imperial or UCL and be surrounded by people who are just like you. (Assuming you are just like them!) And part of that is the research and general buzz. So I was disagreeing with the ideal that it was all about chartered status and that it does not matter where you study.

I also agree with Poetryandwine that gap years can be invaluable. That extra year of maturity and experience can help get a student off to a racing start when they start University.

Totally agree that university is the chance to discover different avenues to explore. DD2 did a broadly vocational first degree and realised during her placement year that it wasn't her vocation at all 😁

Fortunately she did well enough to go and do a much more academic research-oriented Masters, but her under-grad definitely helped her clarify what she did – and didn't – want to do next.

I think you said it pretty well, @Needmoresleep. A number of colleagues and I feel that students have generally become more vocationally orientated over time. I feel very lucky to have had an academic community as a student. Nowadays I wonder how many seek one, even inarticulately?

We do have a series of periodic talks on the big themes geared to UGs, but without staff attendance the room would not always be very full. The UG societies offer a lot but are mainly social, sporty or pre-professional. I don’t know that the students either have or want a sense that they are on an intellectual adventure together. And this is a STEM School just below the COWI level.

Now totally off topic!

You can be thankful you are not teaching economics. At LSE DS found himself surrounded by people, from all over the world, whose sole aim appeared to be to work for Goldman Sachs. Luckily it proved a quick and powerful antidote for any ambitions DS might have had of working in the City. The academic charged with first year pastoral care set up a voluntary lecture series which had either PhD or visiting, more junior, people give lectures, and encouraged first years to get together to put together their own research and papers. I suspect it was only a small proportion who participated but they then formed a good community and got strong support from staff, including some very senior academics. (DS as an undergraduate was thrilled to have a Noble prize winner acknowledge him in a corridor one morning.) Equally DS would have been surprised at 17 to know what area would capture his interest most.

We have heard of similar experiences at Imperial. A subject society, or more strictly sub-subject society, headed by an international leader in the field sparked a student's interest and took him, via a scholarship to Asia in a very different direction to the MEng/Chartered Eng future that might have been originally envisaged.

DC were lucky in that their school offered Electronics, taught by a couple of inspirational teachers, as an additional A level, and which involved hanging out in a lab and building things. I think it was the mix of practical learning and application which caused a surprisingly high number to go onto study engineering, especially EEE. DS still builds his own computers and DD was very torn between medicine and engineering, without ever mentioning chartered status or career prospects, and thoroughly enjoyed her intercalation year.

Again an inarticulate way of saying that 3/4 years can be a long time and if you can find a course or area that sound really interesting, do check all this chartered stuff, but go because you want to.

I can assure all of you DH doesn’t have a round of golf on a Sunday. It’s always a Tuesday!

Seriously though! There are some massive misunderstandings on here. The UK needs professional engineers. Chartered Statius is the only qualification that really matters. Does anyone seriously think “all this Chartered stuff” is anything other than misinformed rubbish? The Uk does, of course, require research. You will struggle to find a top engineering professor who is not a Chartered Engineer. It’s breathtakingly ignorant to think anything else.

The UK is short of qualified engineers. Too many engineering grads never get near doing any engineering work. That’s one of the big issues we have. All big civil and structural engineering projects are headed up by Chartered Engineers working for Consulting Engineers. Household names like Ove Arup who are respected worldwide. (I’m concentrating on civils here). It is vital we train professional engineers to maintain our first class engineering heritage. Smaller consultancies (as DHs) have a nationwide presence and employ hundreds. We never think much about who designs roads, bridges, water management schemes and even nuclear power stations need a civil and structural engineering infrastructure. Ignoring this vital part of engineering, and sneering at people who actually do it, (sitting around for 45 years/playing golf) is fairly typical of what I read on the HE threads. Doing the job employs people and is important. Thank God it paid better than lecturing!

It does not matter too much where you go for engineering. UCL is great. Employers want engineers. Not sure where English and Drama comes into the discussion re Bristol, (wavy ???) but Bristol is a great choice for engineering too. It’s very important DC know what they can do and understand qualifications and all careers. What no one needs is to be told “all this chartered stuff” is not important. It absolutely is.

That chartered stuff is almost certainly important if you want to be a chartered engineer. But engineering is interesting in its own right. I hope that young people are not going to study engineering just because of the job prospects. Hopefully at least some will study engineering and other STEM subjects because they are really really interested in how things work.

Andif they do they should look for the most interesting department and the most interesting course.

You may be right that lots of engineering employers won’t care. They will just want someone with the right paperwork, regardless of where they studied. But 17 year old should follow their passions and go to university to learn to think, to be enthused and to be challenged. If this is not the sort of graduate Arup want to hire, that is Arup’s loss. From what we have observed there are plenty of overseas firms willing to hire top notch Imperial graduates. And they don’t need to be able to play golf.

@TizerorFizz i hear you about the need for engineers. There's such a brain drain with people getting great engineering degrees then going off to work in the city .... but it's reassuring for any engineer/engineering student to have transferrable skills.

There's a lot of talk about apprenticeships, but not that many apprenticeships for engineering at degree level equivalency. DD looked into this www.dysoninstitute.com/the-career/the-apprenticeship/?adlt=strict&toWww=1&redig=10D0A2B249FD41469BF97C65E0F61975 but preferred going for mech over general. She is definitely taking a gap year (has deferred ucl, who are really great with deferrals.) she won't be doing an engineering gap year per say, and I've heard mixed opinions on this re uni. most opinions i've heard say unis love well rounded mature students post gap year

it is such as shame that there seems to be only one degree/apprenticeship for engineers. DD's school keeps banging on about apprenticeships, but not all fields have caught up...

@butterflyflutterby123
Unis don't like students with rusty maths so try and bear that in mind. They don’t like maths students doing gap years. However, it’s done now!!

I agree that engineering apprenticeships are a very mixed bag. I think the majority are BEng. This is the slow route to qualification and very few 18 year olds get degree apprenticeships either each year. Less than 4000. The rhetoric far exceeds high quality apprenticeships.

Transferable skills are great. However an engineering degree is expensive. We, as a country, do waste money on this if DC then do something else. Ditto medicine. We can produce city folk without them doing engineering. Although, to be fair, they probably decide not to become engineers some way into the degree.

What’s actually interesting is that a few years into the job, engineering is far more varied than sitting in front of a computer. No one considers how you get the work in the first place. How do you know price a job and win it? How do you network? How do you calculate invoices? How do you keep a job in track and making money? Running a business is always interesting and engineers can have it all! They just need to stick with it.

I agree that gap years are not advised for Stem degree courses. A lot of the maths can get rusty by taking such a long break.

why did a 4 a alevel and perfect gcse grade student with work experience, volunteering etc (objectively the perfect application) get rejected?*

Because unfortunately there are many more such applicants than places available.

Therefore the interview and/or admissions assessments are used to differentiate between excellent candidates.

Personally I would accept the UCL place - it's a great Uni.

engineering is a subject that can be enjoyed for its own sake

Goodness me yes. I reckon DD's internships and then job (and maybe full set of ucas offers) were helped by her eyes lighting up at the sight of weird cable and components. at a tangent but I get irritated by people talking about 'creative' degree subjects just as artsy ones. There's nothing more creative - really creative - than some sorts of engineering and science.

@ErrolTheDragon totally agree. Can't draw etc for toffee but don't think that coming up with clever solutions to complex problems can be shunted as 'not creatuve'. It's just 'artsy' in a different way

A colleague has an undergrad and then doctorate in aeronautical engineering from Imperial. He worked for British Aerospace for a while but ended up switching paths and becoming a software engineer. I’ve never known anyone better able to solve really complex problems really quickly. He’s a really creative thinker and it doesn’t just apply to engineering problems.

For your DD, there’s no guarantee of getting into UCL next year never mind Imperial and given that British students sometimes find they are behind foreign students in maths at both Imperial and UCL despite A*s at a levels in maths, I’d take the place at UCL and make the most of all the opportunities on offer. UCL is world class.

If the reason for her not getting a place at Imperial is unconscious bias then she’s best off away from that environment while learning and if that wasn’t the reason then she just wasn’t as good as the other applicants. There is just the same chance the same thing will happen next year. It’s not really healthy to be so fixated on a single course at this stage and it’s a good lesson in resilience. Move on and use it as a driver to be a resounding success.

I got down to the last two in my first job interview for a dream job at a prestigious place. They went with the other applicant because they weren’t convinced of my commitment to that career path. Years later they spotted me across Victoria Station in London and came over to me to tell me they loved the work I was doing as I was head of something he admired. They had followed my career afterwards and we ended up working together on another project. I was still in the same field! Really there are many paths to the dream professional place in life and the first step is one of other equally good first steps.

Apologies for reacting this post. Was curious to know if your DD reapply for IC or went to UCL? How is she doing?

Has anyone else reapplied for imperial and was successful second time around?

Ds is at Imperial and loving it. I can’t relate to the ‘cold and lonely’ statement at all. There are hundreds of clubs and generally lots of opportunities to be involved with others.

he got 4 A stars in his A levels and an A star in his EPQ. His flatmate got the same. Another friend was actually offered a Dyson institute apprenticeship but went to Oxford instead and he got the same results. So, these elite unis really do get to pick and choose from the absolute best. The A level scores are a given and they want to see if the student will be able to respond to their style of teaching, will be engaging to teach and has the interest/drive/intellectual curiosity etc.

imperial has just been ranked no. 1 in Europe and no. 2 in the world. I’m pretty sure they’ll expect a fabulous and interesting gap year - bearing in mind that the gap year is usually 14 months; plenty of time to pursue real interests that are relevant.

Congratulations to your son. What is he studying?

@Greenbamboolo computing.

Totally off topic, but - 'she applied to 2 different imperial courses (mech and aero), ucl, bristol and kings. she wanted to apply to cambridge, but decided against it for financial reasons.'

I'm confused by this. Deciding against Cambridge 'for financial reasons', but going for London universities and Bristol?

This is an old thread. I was interested to hear if her daughter reapplied for IC

With that ranking the university is going IC will get even more competitive

@flowerdress I don't understand that either. Cambridge (if my DD had got an offer) would have been one of the cheaper options - only living at home would have been cheaper.