to reapply to imperial

[butterflyflutterby123]

Please read to the end, so sorry its long but very lost and need the advice. DD is 18, and applied for university this year, mechanical engineering degrees. I don't want to sound like a mum who thinks their child is the best and is totally naive, but she is incredible clever.

She has always been top of her class and way ahead of her peers (its been a learning curve to cultivate healthy friendships while being extremely intelligent - she goes to an all girls school, but clever girls are still not highest in the social pecking order 🙄). She got ten 9's and an a at gcse, and is now taking maths, further maths, physics and biology, she has already taken an epq and got an a (she did it on a history topic; she doesnt actually find sciences easier than arts, she loves them both)

there's the background, here's the story. she applied to 2 different imperial courses (mech and aero), ucl, bristol and kings. she wanted to apply to cambridge, but decided against it for financial reasons. she had an amazing ps and loads of work experience (inc 2 summer work experiences at engineering firms) and is predicted 4 a*s. she got invited to take the entrance exam for both. it was a very weird setup, they weren't really told what to expect or given past exams to practise. She fonud the mech one extremely easy and breezed through it (twice - she had to retake it when imperial had a technical difficulty...). she got invited for a mech interview. she was unprepared for the level of difficulty of the aero exam and wasn't asked for an interview. She's not too upset about the aero place, as she already decided she wanted the mech course. She had an interview which went really well. the examiner was very pleasant, and told her he could see she was very passionate and interested.

I'm so sorry to say, but uni rejections were never even on our horizon. I know it sounds horrible and arrogant, but it didn't cross our mind, she has passed every academic test with flying colours. she was very upset when she got rejected from the mech course. she eventually got feedback saying a. some other candidates did better problem solving then her and b. she didn't use a lot of technical language in the interview. This is upsetting because no.1 her interviewer didnt ask her any problem solving questions!! he focused entirely on her work experiences. also, isn't she supposed to get the technical knowledge in the course?

anyway, she has been very mature and philosophical about it. she got ucl, but she really wants icl because she can specialise in nuclear engineering in the 4th year of her MEng. she's not crazy on the idea of going through the whole application process next year on her gap year, but really wants to have a mech+nuclear degree. also, if she reapplies, she automatically loses her ucl place and has to reapply there too, and thats a risk (stupid ucas)

is ucl as good as icl?
is icl still a cold and lonely environment?
does having a year of nuclear help her get nuclear engineering jobs?
is it risky losing ucl?
any other general advice?
why did a 4 a* alevel and perfect gcse grade student with work experience, volunteering etc (objectively the perfect application) get rejected?

thanks for sticking with me <3

It does sound surprising that she was rejected. I don't have any insights on the various London unis (my DD did engineering elsewhere) I'm afraid. In general courses requiring a high level of maths aren't overly keen on gap years. You may get more responses if you report your post and ask MNHQ to move the thread to Higher Education.

I wouldn't worry about the nuclear engineering 4th year, but do a BEng and then a masters in nuclear at wherever is best rated for that at the time, but look for summer placements with different nuclear groups (fusion as well) to decide if thats something she really wants. It might also be a possibility to do a year placement, I've seen a few nuclear one recently as they are desperate to get people into the industry. A friends brother did a degree apprenticeship and further qualification on the job in reactor engineering, so there are many options.
Has she joined Women in Nuclear? That would be great for networking, and following different companies, research institutes on LinkedIn will let her know what is going on with a heads up on placements and open days.
UCL is great, and I'm afraid that uni interviews are often the first time high flyers get rejected. On the super competitive courses it isn't just about academic achievement but showing a wider interest as well, and they really can take their pick.

Sorry she got an a* at epq

Honestly take UCL. It's almost as prestigious as ICL. The nuclear bit won't make a blind bit of difference. Has she looked at entry requirements for the NuclearGrads scheme - they want Physics or Engineering degrees - no further specialism needed.

Loan terms better if she starts this year too...

Thanks so much for the advice.

@CMOTDibbler It definitely rings true about uni being the first rejection for high flyers. She really had to adjust to the idea of not getting the desired result in the academic sphere

@ErrolTheDragon I'm not familiar with the report to move area function, how can I do that?

Thanks @titchy why are the Loan terms better? She's definitely taking a gap year so that won't change her plans ...

She's looked at nuclear jobs and they seem to require specialist degrees? Can she get in with a mech MEng

Shes taking MEng, so BEng and thenasters is not ideal. Longer and it's nicer to do all in one

You can use the Report thingy which should be somewhere on the right of each post to ask MNHQ - I've just done that. Report isn't just for bad stuff.

For students that start next year their loans will run for 40 years. If they start this year they run for 30. She might not appreciate that now but she will when she's mid 50s!

DS was rejected by Cambridge and offered UCL. He is now on target for a 1st and plans to look at Oxford or Ivy League for a masters. He's really glad in retrospect. Your daughter can always apply to Imperial or Oxbridge at MSc level and beyond.

I just checked junior/graduate nuclear engineer jobs with Atkins, and def no specialist degree required there

Well done to your DS @Shakeupandwakeup. UCL can be more prestigious than Cambridge for a Masters in some fields – I know the one DD2 did is.

Rejection comes sooner or later to us all, but she still has a good offer. I work at a top 10 uni. They have to somehow choose between an enormous field of very bright, exceptionally well qualified candidates, which does sometimes mean rejecting students who are predicted straight As and A*s. There are more of those than you might think.

It’s not a sorting system where those with the highest grades are automatically picked. Interviews aim to select on the basis of many other qualities that they are looking for.

I don’t think you’re being horrible but I do think you’re wrong to imply that the interview wasn’t fair, or that the feedback wasn’t right. You weren’t there, can’t judge how she came across and don’t know what qualities they were looking out for.

In her shoes I’d accept the other offer, and as pp have suggested, maybe do a specialist Masters later if that really is necessary for her chosen career - bearing in mind that she is still a sixth former and may well decide on a different path in a few years’ time.

All unis have pros and cons and your DD may well be very happy at UCL.

Imperial last year was running at over 8 applications per admission. I assure you that a great many of the rejected 7 would have been high fliers just like your dd.

Please try to let go of your resentment - focusing on how clever she is and how it’s unfair that she didn’t get her 1st choice is faulty thinking and really isn’t helping. I suspect she’s taking it better than you are!

Hi OP. You say she didn't apply to Oxbridge for "financial reasons," but studying in London is about as expensive as it gets (unless she would be living at home)?

If she's going to take a gap year to reapply to ICL, why not spread the net wider and give Oxbridge a go?

But I agree with pps - unis are not usually keen on gap years for students applying for maths-heavy courses. But if she can find relevant work experience to make herself stand out in terms of skills, focus and maturity, I think she could have a good chance.

Thank you so much for all the help and advice. DD is open to the idea of further education, but says she doesn’t want to start a degree knowing that she needs to do another to get into the industry she wants, which I think is fair enough. She also feels very strongly that ICL will give her a more ‘prestigious’ degree, which would help her finding a first job.

@catsetc Yes she would start uni living at home.
A lot of answers say go to ucl, I don’t necessarily disagree, but I wonder what peoples’ reasons are? Why do you think that is the better option?

Main reason to accept ucl: no guarantee of getting ICL next year, and if she didn’t she’d be in a worse position.

I just did a quick search for graduate level nuclear eng jobs and not one of them needed a specialist degree, either undergraduate or postgraduate, in nuclear. They just say “degree in MechEng or [various alternatives].

If she’s set on reapplying next year fair enough, her choice entirely, but my opinion is that it’s risky; and as @titchy and @CMOTDibbler said, the 4th year specialisation in nuc might not make any difference to her chances of getting the job she wants.

I agree re considering an MSc if really committed to a niche area. We recruit in a discipline commonly supported by a specialist MSc and I wish more undergrads would switch to MSc in 4th year rather than the less specialised MEng 4th year. That decision can wait a couple of years though, and could even involve a switch of university.

I would not choose Oxbridge over Imperial or UCL for engineering. Not for one minute. Particularly if she knows her discipline of interest, do not mess around diluting it with a general engineering course. In engineering your degree knowledge is directly applicable to your work, it's not just a piece of paper, in my view the more relevant, up to date and in depth the better.

I don't think a gap year is a problem if working in industry, the experience will far outweigh any break in doing maths homework.

@NotMeNoNo
Is she going to get sensible experience of Mechanical Engineering in a fap
year though. Is there anything in the nuclear industry?

@butterflyflutterby123

Most design in the nuclear industry (for the uk) is done in France. They are building the power stations here. Therefore doing MEng with French is ultra helpful. Most big companies in any industry won’t necessarily want a specialist undergrad degree. You learn on your first job. You certainly do want MEng. This is a much quicker route to CEng. Structured training with a company or further study is always available.

We don’t have much of a nuclear industry here any more. Taking a gap year is pretty pointless I think. Also not recommended for maths type degrees. Getting meaningful vacation work whilst at university would be so much better - if it’s available. UCL really is no barrier to getting a job. I don’t understand why she thinks graduate engineers in the nuclear industry (what companies?) want specialist degrees that are not widely available? What employers has she looked at and does she understand she would be employed as a graduate engineer working towards becoming Chartered? A degree is the start of the journey.

@butterflyflutterby123
I think it’s also important to realise that not all
top Engineers are brilliant at school either. Engineering is problem solving. A levels are not exactly the same. She might also find she changes her mind re niche area. The other thing I meant to say is that Universities used to offer a year abroad for MEng students in a Grande Ecole in France. You have to do a French course here before you will be considered but it’s prestigious if you can get to one. DDs former boyfriend did Mech Eng and had an amazing year in France.

Hi, OP -

You have a lot of good advice here. I have a couple of additional points.

First, the advantages of an MSc were mentioned by some PPs. The deadline for swapping between the MEng and the BSc ( with the intention of doing an MSc) is sometime in Y3 at most universities, so your DD can think about which suits her best. As a former STEM admissions tutor in a major Russell Group university I agree with @TizerorFizz that the French are worldwide leaders in nuclear so if your DD has the French she might enjoy a year abroad. In that case she will probably need to do an MEng, because it usually a university rule that you must be in residence for the whole of your final year, and typically Y3 is the year students go abroad.

We must take the word of IC that others did better in some ways. But I am somewhat concerned that her interviewer didn’t ask her technical questions, or she did not perceive that he did. It is possible that she missed the chance to frame some of her answers more professionally or intellectually, but it is also true that Mech Eng has pretty awful gender statistics and her interviewer may have been consciously or unconsciously biased, not giving her the chance to shine. At minimum, others may have been offered more straightforward problem solving questions. One thing she can learn from this is to create her own opportunities to steer the conversation (in this case, to a higher plane) to showcase her knowledge. It is a lesson I wish I had learned earlier. I know it is easier said than done.

I agree with PPs that a good degree in Mech Eng ought to be a good qualification for the nuclear industry, to the extent that we still have one. Obviously it has been a while but my own DF did his UG in Mech Eng and his PhD in Nuclear and I think this is still fairly common.

I am sorry for your DD because the likely truth is that she didn’t do anything wrong. On the other hand it does sound like she was in the ‘maybe’ area if those were four A’s with no stars (and I know how incredible that sounds!). She needed some good luck and maybe had some bad luck.

In STEM we generally discourage gap years but I would always suggest the applicant discuss their plans with relevant admissions tutors. UCL is world class and while the decision is for your DD, I think going there and either doing a year in France or taking an MSc at one of the COWI institutions is what I would hope my own DC would decide in her shoes. Best wishes to your DD

I’m pretty certain any engineering or physics degree can open those doors; what you cover in a degree is such a tiny part of what the job involves.

Imperial, in my opinion, is far enough ahead of the others that it’s worth holding out for.

Oxford is also excellent, is it worth her applying there too?

Hi

Sorry to hear that your daughter is disappointed despite such great grades. Just wanted to check why she thought Cambridge would be more expensive, and also to see if her predicted grades were four x A or four x A star?

OP says:

"and is predicted 4 a*s"

Thank you, @Innocenta . The stars did not show in the OP on my phone although yours did. This makes me wonder more about the interview. I think both of my hypotheses are plausible: the interviewer could have given DD the choice of how to discuss her work experience and she could have spoken in a low level way, or bias could have played a bigger role. I remain curious as to whether others were offered more straightforward problem solving opportunities, but I doubt this differential was the whole story. Unfortunately it is really difficult to get an objective sense of what happened from the current vantage point.

Going off at a bit of a tangent to your original question, Butterflyflutterby123, but your daughter needs to think carefully about taking a gap year. The Mechs course will involve a lot of maths and gap years aren't recommended for maths students. Your daughter might be quite shocked to discover how rusty she will be after a gap year. The time from sitting the A levels (May/June) until starting uni after a gap year is nearer one year and four months. No point making the course harder than it has to be.

I wish more undergrads would switch to MSc in 4th year rather than the less specialised MEng 4th year.

The structure of the loans means that it's likely to go the other way - MEng is just one 4 year undergrad loan. The MSc route is an undergrad loan plus a postgrad masters loan. It's a significant disincentive.