Do you feel Prouder about Oxbridge because of going to the local comprehensive?

[Verysadatwork]

I confess I do feel extra proud of ds getting to Cambridge for this reason

Why do you think it is a “bigger achievement getting into oxbridge from a state school”? I think it depends entirely on the school and on the parents (as well as the child, obviously). Many state schools have excellent support for university applications, either from their own teachers or from the Sutton Trust or other organisations or from teachers at independent schools (I know one well-known independent school whose teachers advise more state school students on oxbridge applications than students from the Indy school itself.). Some independent schools provide good guidance, but some don’t. Some parents provide good support and others don’t.
Why be so fixated on schools????

I get where you are coming from.

Although depending on who you socialise with be ready for some bleating comments about how they only got in because of discrimination against privately educated children and their little darlings have been maliciously excluded.

As a state educated child who went to private sixth form the approach to learning was like chalk and cheese. My mother never recovered from the private school maths teacher moaning that her class of 15 (all predicted an A) was too big... I'd come from a school where there would have been 30 in that class across the whole ability spectrum.

I just binned yet another begging letter to "widen participation" at my private school and will continue to volunteer with the widening participation run by the university I have hon. lecturer status at which works primarily in the deprived london boroughs I work and live in.
Feels like a much better use of my time.

Isn't it the other way to understand these days? It's flipping impossible to get to Oxbridge from a fee paying school. There was a London state on Twitter this week with EIGHTYNINE Oxbridge offers 89!!! Never heard of anything like it at an independent. Amazing work and super impressive for all of them! Will pupils at that school now be contextualised having had the privilege of being there?

Laughing at all these long winded farty comments about how children from private should be proud too 🤣🙄… private school kids are trained for oxbridge interviews from prep school. Forget pride; when you’re paying thousands, getting into oxford or Cambridge becomes “expected”.

You be proud OP. You deserve it. Your son got into an excellent university without you having to shell out thousands on private school fees. Hope I can achieve the same with at least one of my 3

Agree!!! You should be super proud, very impressive 👏 👍 😀

Anyone who gets into Oxbridge can be very, very proud. But it's no longer true that private school students have an advantage. They absolutely used to - but it's been more than compensated against in the last few years (since before Covid).
Someone I know who vets candidates for Oxbridge warned us some time ago that the fact that our DS is at a top private school would count against him. All applicants for his subjects have a perfect score of 9s at GCSE and expected A* at A Levels. And they were instructed to always give priority to state school students over private ones. Our DS was basically told that he didn't stand a chance, BECAUSE he was at a top private school.
I'm absolutely not saying that isn't how it should be. But please don't think your child has beaten some sort of secret odds. Those odds are now massively stacked towards talented state school students.

Some of these posts are quite remarkable.

Without a doubt there are more barriers to overcome if you go to state school, even for extremely bright children. It's more accessible now but abso-bloody-lutely OP, congratulations to your DS, not surprised you're brimming with pride and rightly so! I think it's okay to feel an additional layer of pride whilst acknowledging those from private schools have also worked hard- it's not taking that away from them.

There are so many variables here. Not all comps are equal and neither are all independent schools. Family support /parents education also makes big difference. There is also an element of luck/subject choice. Much easier to get in for MFL or Classics than PPE for example.

But it's no longer true that private school students have an advantage

It is no longer the case that those from private schools have an advantage by virtue of being privately educated, and rightly so, but there are still plenty of advantages those children have. Again, it's not taking away how hard they have worked for a place, but state schools have less consistency in teaching quality (some are great, some suck), parents less likely to be able to afford private tuition if needed, state schools barely have the funding for essential things let alone extracurriculars that make candidates stand out. There is also the cycle of success to consider, someone from an affluent family is more likely to have parents who have been to a red brick and can give more insight, amongst other things. I think the disparity in education and the advantages one gives isn't a bad thing, it's the truth.

@Sunshine4Ever2 - that’s just not the case. I teach at a top independent school and have a number of friends who work at both Oxford and Cambridge. Of course they are trying to redress balance but it doesn’t’count against you’.

@goldenembers

Well “the local comprehensive” will mean completely different things depending on its catchment.

Independent schools also vary a lot. Possibly more so than state schools.

These days, around 75% of sixth formers are in state schools and 25% are in independent at that age. Accordingly, around 75% of those entering Oxbridge in recent years are from state schools. Everything is contextualised. And they also know that some independent schools are poorly-run and absolutely shocking.

Also I’m not sure what ‘special information, advice or classes people think students in even the top independents are receiving? My DC is at Oxbridge from one of the London Day Schools and there was absolutely nothing, except for a talk in Year 12. How can they be providing ‘bespoke advice’ when they have about 100 applying across the full range of subjects and one Oxbridge advisor? The Oxbridge advisor did not help with the PS at all - how could he? He’s not an expert in all subjects. All the Oxbridge advisor did was asked for all early applications to be sent to the school in late Sept do they could check there were no clashes (ie two students applying to the same college for the same subject) before they attacked the references. That’s it. There is nothing any advisor can tell you that is not easily available on the internet or the Oxford or Cambridge stats that are published every year. The school did give two mock interviews though. Also, it is true that teaching was delivered online throughout lockdown.

So basically your school did offer a lot more assistance with oxbridge applicants than the average comp ! A little bit disingenuous to suggest otherwise! OP yes definitely feel massively proud …big proud Mama moment.👏💐

Independent schools also vary a lot. Possibly more so than state schools.

I get that geography plays a part and fees vary, but someone who can afford a private education has much more autonomy over their child's education then someone at a comp who is more than likely bound by catchment areas.

OP, you are, of course correct, that students from comprehensives are less likely to apply to Oxbridge. Nobody would argue with that - so in this sense, getting in from a state school is more of an achievement, yes.

But, for those who do apply from the state sector, they are no longer at a disadvantage in terms of the selection process. I know I sound like a broken record here - but look at the stats for the last few years. The ratio of applicants to offers made is broadly the same in each sector.

Cambridge don’t look at things in such simplified terms as ‘state or independent.’ You will see the application v offer rates are broken down as follows -

comprehensive schools
grammar schools
sixth form colleges
FE / tertiary colleges
independent schools
other

There is very little between offer ratios for all of them. The most favourable offer rate is for grammar schools. The lowest is for FE / tertiary colleges.

Then there are the stats for overseas applicants, for whom the offer ratio is lower.

Offer ratios vary far more according to region or even the ethnicity or sex of the applicant (within different subjects) than they do according to school sector.

What they are looking for is a student who has ‘outperformed’ in terms of their educational / family background. Contextualisation is a blunt instrument in many ways, but it’s better than nothing.

So a student who is likely to achieve the minimum grades A*AA from a highly deprived school where there is massive disruption and most pupils won’t even stay on for A-levels, has already proved they are exceptional against the odds.

Someone with the same predictions of AAA from a school such as Westminster will be seen as underperforming relative to their cohort. They are unlikely to get an offer. From that type of school, you will need to have at least 3xA and a lot of “extras” to prove you have made use of the opportunities available to you and gone beyond expectations.

Most applicants are somewhere in the ‘middle ground’ of having attended good/outstanding comps, grammars or ‘meh’ independent schools with middling results nobody has heard of.

So all Oxbridge can do is contextualise as far as possible. They also know that parents’ educational background is a far more reliable factor in determining educational outcomes than the type of school a student attends. Which is why they ask this question on the supplementary info forms.

Having said this, Oxbridge can only deal with those who apply. They are trying to widen participation by targeting schools in low participation areas and there are schemes such as the Sutton Trust and UNIQ. Cambridge have now started a ‘foundation year’ where students from low participation areas can apply with BBB,

So what I’m saying is, the situation is far more nuanced and complex than simply “did you go to a state school or a private school.” I think you must know this OP, so I’m not sure why you seem so keen to provoke a polarising debate.

But please don't think your child has beaten some sort of secret odds. Those odds are now massively stacked towards talented state school students.

This is inaccurate. The reality is that historically the odds have been significantly in favour of private school students and the imbalance is now being redressed. That is simply making things fairer not stacking odds against private school students. Of course a string of 9s at GCSE will be much more impressive from a failing comp than from a top private selective. The top private selective students whose string of 9s is the norm in their cohort now need to set themselves apart in other ways (e.g. essay competition prizes etc.) to which they should have ample access. The top private schools make this fact perfectly clear now. State school students in less favourable teaching environments will have already set themselves apart from their cohort with their string of 9 achieved GCSEs as it will be far from the norm in their environment. That application of contextualisation is fair. It just feels unfair when unfairness has been the norm for so long.

The suggestion that a student from a top private has no chance of getting into Oxbridge simply because of the school they went to has to be inaccurate. On that premise, no students would get in from those schools which is just not true. The reality is just that a less outstanding student from a private selective who could have got before probably wouldn't now.

@Verysadatwork

Some of these posts are quite remarkable.

What do you mean OP?

Those odds are now massively stacked towards talented state school students

No they aren't, I think this a narrative/myth that those in private education like to peddle to try and rationalise why the parents have spent ££s and they didn't get a place.

When you hear the individual stories of children who didn't get a place, it simply must be that the fact they were at an independent school went against them.

I am not talking about Tarquin whose Dad was able to fund a new college library. I am talking about national olympiad winners.

stickynotefever - Yes I totally agree.

Students from independent schools are not being penalised. They are still getting in! It’s just that things are more rigorously contextualised now - and rightly so in the vast majority of cases.

As I said, at my DC’s school there was a talk for anybody interested in applying to Oxbridge. To the pp above - yes, of course there was a talk like that in a school where 80% of A-levels are A* /A. It would be a bit weird if there wasn’t, given the students they themselves select. It’s a certain type of school and it is what it is.

The purpose of the talk was hardly “here is the magic formula to Oxbridge admission.” It was more a firm reality check in Year 12. It kicked off with “If you don’t have at least 2 A* predictions, we strongly advise you not to go through the Oxbridge process.”

At the school DS was at, nearly everyone would be predicted AAA / AAA at the least. There are over 200 students in a year group. But what they said at the talk is that, realistically, given the type of school it is, if you don’t have AAA predictions, you are unlikely to get anywhere with Oxbridge. This is because you need to be at the top end of the school’s cohort to have a chance. They are just being realistic and trying to avoid a lot of unnecessary stress for students who think,”oh look, I’m predicted A*AA - might as well have a shot.”

So yes, some people whose children got A*AA but were put off applying to Oxbridge may feel, in retrospect, their child could have got those grades at a state school (or lower performing independent) and still stood a chance with an Oxbridge application. Well, maybe, maybe not. It is what it is and who can know? No point wondering about what could have been. I don’t know why such a fuss is made of Oxbridge anyway? Never mind the school system, why do we have this three tier university system of - Oxbridge, Russell Group then everything else? The university system is just as ridiculous as the school system in this country, imo.

The trouble is that people get hung up on anecdotes and individual cases and then draw their own conclusions. You need to consider the overall stats and the top private selective are still getting healthy numbers into Oxbridge (still 50% success rate of applicants for some schools). You can't assume that the Olympiad winners will necessarily shine in an Oxbridge interview and remember these interviews are done by academics who are assessing whether a very specific teaching style would suit an individual and bring out the best in them. They are often looking for a certain unquantifiable spark that they might find in a candidate who is less polished than another. Also, Oxbridge interviews significantly more outstanding candidates than there are places. There is always an element of luck in the process despite what some people say about surefire candidates.

Sorry that bit that came out in bold type should read “if you don’t have three A* predictions you are unlikely to get anywhere..,”

@WinterSpringSummerorFall

When you hear the individual stories of children who didn't get a place, it simply must be that the fact they were at an independent school went against them.

I am not talking about Tarquin whose Dad was able to fund a new college library. I am talking about national olympiad winners.

Plenty of people from across the board who achieve or exceed the required grades and have extra curriculars don't get a place from state schools either. I'm not sure why being an olympiad though would mean they should be entitled to a place above others, it's an amazing achievement but why should it be assumed it'll translate to a university place? And no doubt a family having the money and resources to support that achievement is a big factor many people don't have the chance to.

@Sunshine4Ever2

Anyone who gets into Oxbridge can be very, very proud. But it's no longer true that private school students have an advantage. They absolutely used to - but it's been more than compensated against in the last few years (since before Covid). Someone I know who vets candidates for Oxbridge warned us some time ago that the fact that our DS is at a top private school would count against him. All applicants for his subjects have a perfect score of 9s at GCSE and expected A* at A Levels. And they were instructed to always give priority to state school students over private ones. Our DS was basically told that he didn't stand a chance, BECAUSE he was at a top private school. I'm absolutely not saying that isn't how it should be. But please don't think your child has beaten some sort of secret odds. Those odds are now massively stacked towards talented state school students.

THIS The private school student with straight 9s may not even be given an interview, these days. It is unfair because the online availability of learning materials and support has already levelled the field in a positive sense and contextualized offers over egg the pudding.

Basically OP you'll get all sorts of excuses about him getting a place because students from independent schools are so disadvantaged now- but in reality the taste of levelling up isn't too sweet for those who have benefitted from being at a distance advantage for many many years.

Rather than thinking about it in such binary ‘state v independent school’ terms, try looking at it regionally. Far less students are getting in from Scotland, Wales or NE England for instance (regardless of whether they went to a private school). Does that mean it’s less in an achievement to get in if you apply from SE England? Maybe, maybe not?

For some courses, admissions rates are much higher for girls than boys. For other courses it’s the reverse.

What about the stats for different ethnic groups?

Then there are the POLAR and ACORN considerations. These will not always correspond to school performance or the type of school a student attends.

Finally, the offer stats show that all UK applicants have greater chances than those applying from overseas. And there are a lot of students from overseas at Oxbridge!