Lecturer's child at open day for second time

[Igloo71]

I went with DS to our local uni's open day over the summer. The head of department had their child there (with, I assumed, dad helping out in the background - the little girl was running back and forth to a man who seemed to be a parent). She was interrupting throughout the event, but no issues at all, I assumed it was an emergency childcare situation. DS and I laughed about it afterwards and we both had completely forgotten about it until this morning.

He's now at the offer holder event and the child is there again. He's texting me to say it's completely embarrassing as she is talking to them about her department and the child is interrupting constantly, every 5 minutes at least. She is stopping her talk to speak with the child and my DS is just embarrassed on her behalf.

DS is adamant he will never go to this uni now when it had once been his top choice. I'm left wondering if this is the norm at uni's? I've got no idea if DS should be more flexible with his outlook, he's no idea what it's like being a working mum. But equally, she's got possible childcare on site from the uni students.

This isn't a Russell Group uni, but definitely a highly regarded uni and his offer is relatively high (ABB). What do we think?

@Wheyprotcookie

"Regardless of the rights and wrongs of bringing a small child to an open day, he absolutely is a consumer and a customer. No he's not "buying a degree" but he is buying the learning environment, the time of the teaching and pastoral staff and so on. The university will be paid for his attendance in some way and will be using the profit from that payment to keep the university running."

Sigh. There are so many misconceptions on how a university works. No hon, he is not a customer.

The university if not a profit making entity. It is a charitable entity - your son being there makes ZERO difference to a lecturer's pay. Salaries are based on a national scale. The government does pay the university for running costs of a student, most of which does not even cover costs. There is no profit to be made and the university is not trying to make a profit. In fact many universities end up charging overheads on research grants (thank the lecturers for these grants which they miraculously manage to obtain while juggling students who think they are customers with brilliant enough research to get funding) which make up the difference to pay operational costs. Unlike the US, endowments do not make any difference. The only time your son can legitimately demand customer service from a university entity is accommodation, catering and so on, which are separate services.

Whilst I didn't write that original comment you quote, thanks for explaining uni funding, that's helpful. There's a massive preconception on this thread topic that we all know how uni's work, how lecturers operate, etc. I made it very clear that I'm a parent and didn't go to uni. Your post is helpful to me and I appreciate that.

@Cottagepieandpeas

I've done many, many open days (as staff) over the years and never seen a child belonging to staff (plenty of younger siblings of visiting students though). So no, it's not the norm.

Agree with @WouldIBeATwat about the depressing rise of student as consumer.

When I was a UG student and a lone parent, one term I had a lecture from 6-8. There was no one I could rely on for regular childcare at that time of day and couldn't afford to pay anyone, so I asked the lecturer if I could bring her sometimes. He was fine with that, enthusisastic in fact, and my DD would sit with colouring (pre-screen days) and a drink and ask me an occasional question.

Perhaps other students thought the lecturer and I were both being unprofessional but it was never expressed and mostly people were fascinated by the fact that I was doing a degree as well as having a child (and a part time job). It was much more unusual to have student parents in those days.

I can't imagine this incident putting me off a university that I really wanted to go to. I also don't really understand the relevance of your current low level of income. How does that affect your DS view that the academic is unprofessional?

I think that the difference was that you seem to have arranged things so that your child wasn't constantly interrupting.

@Igloo71

thanks all, yes, I think he might be overreacting from what some of you have said now. I guess his only context is school, rather than the working world. And my experience is within my own job where I'd be forced to take time off rather than take my child to work. This is standard with a lot of employers, so I guess some of you might not realise this.

Every sympathy that you are forced to give up your time for this - truly shocked actually.

Well, as you’ve recognised she’s there out of goodwill, so hard for her to take time off from time that’s not part of her workload. I’m a HoD at the moment and visiting family this weekend as it’s the only weekend in 6 weeks with no open day. Not part of workload and definitely not paid. She may be straining goodwill if she ask to keep asking peopleto look after her child.

If we started charging for all the weekends we cover that we are not contracted to do then your son would not be able to afford university. It would be a pastime of the rich!

I'd also be put off, it's unprofessional. There are many professions where people work outside their contracted hours and still need to remain professional. I know we wouldn't be able to do this anyway due to insurance reasons.

Also as a PP said, many are spectacularly missing the point!
It's not the mere PRESENCE of a child that's off-putting.
It's said child's behaviour that's off-putting.
If HoD was apologetic, or attempted to send child off etc fair enough.

But child was interrupting, people were openly rolling their eyes etc.
AND another parent seemed to be present?

Why is everyone ignoring this?

Are lecturers not paid a salary? If they’re paid an annual salary then isn’t it up to thr employer to determine what they are required to do?

I can see your son’s point of view. He may worry she’s unprofessional, doesn’t manage her time well, isn’t focussed. I don’t know that he should turn it down because of this, but if he does he should say why.

I had a low-paying job for years as a single mum and there is no way I could have brought my kid to work!

@Wheyprotcookie
"Regardless of the rights and wrongs of bringing a small child to an open day, he absolutely is a consumer and a customer. No he's not "buying a degree" but he is buying the learning environment, the time of the teaching and pastoral staff and so on. The university will be paid for his attendance in some way and will be using the profit from that payment to keep the university running."

Sigh. There are so many misconceptions on how a university works. No hon, he is not a customer.

The university if not a profit making entity. It is a charitable entity - your son being there makes ZERO difference to a lecturer's pay. Salaries are based on a national scale. The government does pay the university for running costs of a student, most of which does not even cover costs. There is no profit to be made and the university is not trying to make a profit. In fact many universities end up charging overheads on research grants (thank the lecturers for these grants which they miraculously manage to obtain while juggling students who think they are customers with brilliant enough research to get funding) which make up the difference to pay operational costs. Unlike the US, endowments do not make any difference. The only time your son can legitimately demand customer service from a university entity is accommodation, catering and so on, which are separate services."

so are you saying that a university with no students would continue to be funded?

I can't quite understand these nasty attacks on the OP's son. Why would prospective students (and their parents) know the terms on which the University engages their employees? In any situation where you attend a sales pitch (let's not beat around the bush - this is what the Universities are doing under the guise of helping students), if the employees there could not properly communicate with you because their young child was demanding attention, you would likely question if this service being offered was for you. For example, I often see it promoted on here that solicitors should offer a prospective client an initial half hour consultation for free (or other pro bono/marketing etc. which often occurs outside of "normal" working hours). Would you be happy if that free advice was delivered in drips and drabs around the pestering of a small and bored child? Unlikely. I doubt you would then instruct them, even if the work would then be predominantly in office hours. Ditto a trade coming to quote for a job, child in tow. It gives the wrong impression and you are unlikely to be able to glean all the information you need from the interaction. On a brighter note, the reaction of these potential students may force the University to start looking at its marketing strategy and employment terms, in order to create a more sustainable balance for its staff.

@Justalittlebitfurther

I feel like all those posters saying he lacks empathy are lacking empathy with him he’s going to come out of uni owing more than £50k why shouldn’t he at least want the appearance of a lecturer who is going to be focused on her students. I doubt anyone who goes to private school and pays fees would be happy if the teachers turned up with their children and paid more attention to them then their class!

An open day is supposed to be about the uni showing off all the great things. At 18 how is he supposed to know this won’t happen during his lectures?

Exactly. The lack of empathy for young people on this thread is astounding. I may be overly invested but students are screwed over by so many. Also so many degrees aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

why shouldn’t he at least want the appearance of a lecturer who is going to be focused on her students.

A woman who clearly has other commitments and a senior job turning up on a Saturday to talk to students who haven't even enrolled yet doesn't give the appearance of someone who isn't focussed on her students to me at all.

@FluffMagnet

I can't quite understand these nasty attacks on the OP's son. Why would prospective students (and their parents) know the terms on which the University engages their employees? In any situation where you attend a sales pitch (let's not beat around the bush - this is what the Universities are doing under the guise of helping students), if the employees there could not properly communicate with you because their young child was demanding attention, you would likely question if this service being offered was for you. For example, I often see it promoted on here that solicitors should offer a prospective client an initial half hour consultation for free (or other pro bono/marketing etc. which often occurs outside of "normal" working hours). Would you be happy if that free advice was delivered in drips and drabs around the pestering of a small and bored child? Unlikely. I doubt you would then instruct them, even if the work would then be predominantly in office hours. Ditto a trade coming to quote for a job, child in tow. It gives the wrong impression and you are unlikely to be able to glean all the information you need from the interaction. On a brighter note, the reaction of these potential students may force the University to start looking at its marketing strategy and employment terms, in order to create a more sustainable balance for its staff.

People are hating on the OP's son cuz he's a MAN, evil possessor of a penis. Hating on a working mum, poor overworked darling.

If its anything like our uni the child care cover is shit. Don't let it be a deal breaker if he likes the uni. Lecturers are human too and the kid won't be in lectures.

at 18 how is he supposed to know this won’t happen during his lectures?

Honestly? By engaging his brain cells and some common sense.

@grapewines

at 18 how is he supposed to know this won’t happen during his lectures?

Honestly? By engaging his brain cells and some common sense.

I have seen kids in lectures btw. The difference was they all sat quietly, looked cute and you couldn't even tell they were there for the most part. A couple of small interruptions, but not running around like newly released rockets.

How odd that your son is so annoyed about this that he is willing to change his university choice! He is unlikely to ever see the child again. The fact that the child has been around at extra events on the weekend has nothing to do with your ds course. It is actually a bit odd that your ds has attended two open days for the same course. I assume he is picking up his contempt for the child's presence from you as otherwise why would he bother to text you about it. v odd

I doubt your son choosing not to attend the uni because of this incident will really make that much of a difference to the lecturer or the uni tbh. I'm not sure I really understand the angst

"That's not students' businesses though is it?
They're paying 30K, and several other costs, to attend.
That makes him a customer.
If the uni doesn't make enough etc not his problem!"

No paying does not make him a customer because the university is not a business. He is paying the costs incurred to a university so that entity can give him an opportunity to learn. and believe me, that entity is trying to make its best to give him that opportunity.

The point of this explanation is that the university is not even able to cover its costs for the privilege of these entitled students and their parents pretending they are customers - yet it is the lecturers who are trying to give their free time on the weekend, and are applying to grants so they can make up the fall for the costs. It is the "customers" who should be thanking for these opportunities and hard work. And rather than doing that they behave in this way. The UK university system is on the downfall as many lecturers are leaving as a result.

@Longcovid21

If its anything like our uni the child care cover is shit. Don't let it be a deal breaker if he likes the uni. Lecturers are human too and the kid won't be in lectures.

thank you. We've spoken and I've made this point.

@cansu

How odd that your son is so annoyed about this that he is willing to change his university choice! He is unlikely to ever see the child again. The fact that the child has been around at extra events on the weekend has nothing to do with your ds course. It is actually a bit odd that your ds has attended two open days for the same course. I assume he is picking up his contempt for the child's presence from you as otherwise why would he bother to text you about it. v odd

what are you on about?

First event, like I said. Open day. this event. Offer holder day. Two VERY different events.

Also, like I said, we'd forgotten completely about the child at the first event. Also, like I said, her presence wasn't the issue, it was the interrupting that caused issues. Suggest you read the thread fully.

This thread has gotten off base a little.

Teenage boy goes to talk to lecturer at an open day. Lecturer is distracted by their child. Teenage boy believes this is what all lectures will be like at that university therefore decides he isn’t going.

Teenage boy is a bit immature. Yes he won’t always be the centre of attention, but he needs to learn how to express his concerns. Hard at that age and that is where a parent or teacher steps in the advise him.

What is the concern - children will always be in lectures and therefore lecturers won’t give students sufficient attention. Seems unlikely - but this boy’s mum seems to think that too. So no wise counsel at home.

So talk to a teacher or someone at the uni. Was the child present brocade it was a Saturday, or will this be a regular occurrence? That question out to the uni - answer will likely be this was because it was a weekend event - it won’t happen on weekday lectures.

A further concern is son had questions he didn’t get answered because the child was interrupting. Email the lecturer, explain it was a busy day with lots of distractions and ask true questions.

He is still young, he still believe the work revolves around him, but this is a very easy situation to calmly deal with

I don’t think he should make his decision based on this one thing.

Are lecturers not paid a salary? If they’re paid an annual salary then isn’t it up to thr employer to determine what they are required to do?

Yes we are paid a salary ( although probably not as much as you think!) and we are contracted to work a certain number of hours. In my case I'm contracted to work 35 hours a week. There was also an expectation that I attend open days. When I first started this involved 3 events a year and only one of them was on a Saturday. Applicant visit days/offer holder days didn't exist.

I regularly work 50+ hours a week and we now have weekend open days/applicant days almost every week between October and June. And in August we have clearing and there's an expectation that we're available for that.

I don't get paid any extra, I don't get any TOIL .... I just get threatened because I'm behind on my research targets.

I'm fortunate that my DH is available for weekend childcare but if I was a single parent or if DH was an academic ( or worked weekends) I'd be screwed.

Setting aside the point about the child being at the Open Day, and having read what you’ve posted about your son choosing to be ambitious about higher education for both of your sakes (very thoughtful), I think you’d be doing yourself a favour to rethink things.

A university education is in no way a guarantee, or even good odds these days, of financial stability or better prospects. Many many graduates around the country, who graduated any time from the late 90s onwards are testament to this.

There are many trades which provide much better financial outcomes than I’d say 65% or university degrees these days. Even hustling (legally) can and often does provide better financial prospects and security.

I understand scraping by to afford university (and also the aspirational aspect of university) - but paying out £9k/yr for three years isn’t a guarantee of anything. There is zero - ZERO - causation or correlation between paying the money and graduating with a good enough degree to better his prospects. Decouple these two things now, before he commits, or you could be setting yourself up for disappointment.

Also, knock this RG university thing on the head. It’s branding, pure and simple. You’re being used, for however much you’ve managed to save and your son will earn while studying and working. There’s no kudos to RG universities. It’s marketing, plain and simple.

And if his uni of choice isn’t “even” RG, but he’s paying the same as say an Oxbridge student….just think about what you’re putting all this effort and sacrifice in for.

Of course, students go to all sorts of universities and study all sorts of things and go on to do extremely well in life - and good for them. Of course they do, and your son might be one of them. My point is, it’s far from guaranteed. So many other things influence his outcomes, all of them “free”. So I really think you should stop seeing university as “we are paying £X so we will receive this and that”. You won’t necessarily (and if you think about it, nobody will have said you would, either).

To clarify, he's nervous about getting this right. Is that not allowed? Can those of you who have overtly expressed how terrible he is, not see that? He's 17, he's had probably more life experience than others, but not that much! But no, he's clearly a woman hating mysogynist.