Medicine 2023 Entry

[opoponax]

Hi all,

I don't think there is a Medicine 2023 Entry thread yet, so it might be an idea to get one started.

Anyone out there with DC applying or reapplying for Medicine 2023, please join a friendly thread for mutual support and useful advice from those who understand the UK Medical School application process.

You have no idea of my personal circumstances, and your post is both inaccurate and very much out of order.

Posters are trying to make decisions about which medical schools to apply to. Intercalation options were important to DD, and may be for others.

I don't remember thinking much about 5 year courses v 6 year courses for DS1, but I think that for DS2 it will be very good not to have do decide whether to do the extra year until he has been doing the course for a couple of years. Now that the degree does not affect allocation of F1/2 it is less valuable than it was. If a DC wants to be a GP it is probably not worth intercalating, but obviously if they are interested in research it should be a significant factor in selecting a course.

I can't remember whether we have talked in this thread about funding in years 5 and 6. It moves to NHS paying fees and a bursary of at least £1k, but max bursary and reduced maintenance loan they can get is a lot less than the SFE maintenance loan.

@mumsneedwine I don't know of any universities which tell applicants they can live rent free in later years, I only know about Bristol because you have told us. This may mean that others don't offer that or just that it is kept quiet. But I don't think it would be a nice university experience to spend last 2 years in hospital accommodation without a flat of your own though. The other financial consideration is that it is an extra year before you start earning money, so you could say that the extra cost is the living cost for an extra year plus a year of pay post qualification.

In conclusion, if DC thinks they want to intercalate, it is worth knowing how flexible the university is, but I think most allow you to intercalate externally if not a 6 year course. But by some measures the cost of intercalating is at least £50k (£10k living cost and £40k lost income) and some families will struggle to cover maintenance cost in Y5/6 so worth factoring 5 years v 6 years into decision making.

Sorry, meant to tag @Needmoresleep , not @mumsneedwine !

"In conclusion, if DC thinks they want to intercalate, it is worth knowing how flexible the university is, but I think most allow you to intercalate externally if not a 6 year course."

Monkey I completely agree that most won't to intercalate. DD was slightly unusual in that she knew what she wanted to do, but was unsure whether to get there via medicine or engineering.

However it will be a factor for some. We certainly have known DC clearly wanting from the outset to do expedition medicine or tropical medicine.

My understanding is that most, actually, don't allow external intercalation. Off the top of my head both Birmingham and Nottingham did not use to and KCL and SGUL only allow it for a small number. Hence the advice that it can be a useful thing to consider when weighing up the merits of different med schools. It will be on medical school websites.

In terms of costs, DD lived at home, and indeed, at least before everything locked down again, returned to her gap year job. She knows others who again intercalated close to home.

If anyone really think they will be struggling with costs, and this applies especially to grad medicine students, I am sure they can ask the medical schools what might be done to help,. Living in halls as a senior resident is a popular option. Working as an HCA is another. And living in placement accommodation. DD is doing this in her final year, and planned it as soon as she which placements she would have. It will make for a cheap year.

I anticipated the push back, though don't fully understand why it is so strong. There is never the same level of opprobrium for those opting to take six year courses. The great thing about a five year course with the options of an external intercalation is that it is flexible. You can wait till the start of Yr 3 to decide whether you wanted a five or six year course, and have a wider choice of what you do and where you do it. Many at this point will want to simply get to the end of their course.

Our students complain a lot about lack of money in final year. We provide accommodation for the furthest placement (I think free), but they still have to find the travel funding to get to eg GP placements, or back to the university. This also means they cannot keep on a part-time job, or at the very least have to find one in a new area for a short period of time, knowing nothing about the place. Some just "move in", others keep a place at uni, and the ones that don't feel pretty isolated at weekends, they say.
I also tell students (usually in relation to failing a year) that it does not cost them their FY1 wages, it costs them their final year of working wages (currently likely to be >£100,000). So it is not somethign to do lightly.
I have not known a uni decline an intercalation year anywhere, even if taken as a "hold year" from the course, but some appear to be more organised around helping with arrangements. It may also affect SFE if you put a hold on your studies, I suspect.
If people are already aware they may want to go into research or a super niche field, then they will no doubt have these thoughts in mind. These people enjoy their iBSc (though often find coming back to clinical practice scary for the first few weeks). Most people do not have those sort of plans in mind, and will decide (often based on finances and what friends are doing) if they wish to intercalate, where optional, when they have settled in a bit, in my experience.
My beloved offspring were clear they did not want to intercalate (not yet changed their mind) and is the reason they turned down a compulsory 6 year course, in the end, even though a preferred location. It is horses for courses, but at least discussing it lets them think about it.

@Needmoresleep it says on Birmingham website:

Current University of Birmingham students wishing to intercalate at another institution should refer to the Intercalation section within Canvas for details of the process of securing leave of absence for the purpose of intercalation.

So a bit complicated!

It looks like Nottingham allow intercalation but suspend your studies, so I assume fees are complicated.

I think that if you intercalate after Y4 you just more over to the NHS funding at that point, so it is the same as it is for any student.

Maybe it was just a coincidence that the 5 year courses we looked at (Cardiff, Leicester, Newcastle, Leeds) all allow external intercalation. Most of the universities accept external students for an intercalated degree, so would be strange if they do not allow their students to study elsewhere. I find it surprising that nobody has collated the data as it is important to some people.

I think changing the subject would be a good idea. Lecturing anyone about dealing with poverty is never a good idea.
For reference, my own kids are fine and have earned enough money to do whatever they want in life. But the kids I teach don't.

GANFYD, thanks. I don't disagree with the cost of failing a year, but hope that a well chosen intercalation would add either to future salary or to job satisfaction.

I also don't think students pay travel costs to placements. DD ran a small car, almost always giving lifts to three others, and was delighted last year that her travel claim more than covered her running costs for the year. For some reasons GP placements seem to be set as far away as possible from the hospital placement, so the mileage was high. Lifts are strongly encouraged, so a car is useful but not necessary.

I had not heard of people taking "hold" years, though assume it is possible. Standard intercalation arrangements seem to be either that you cannot intercalate elsewhere, or that there are restrictions, often about coming fairly high up in the year. Bristol policy was that you had to be interviewed and approved so they could be satisfied that it was a serious proposal, and that they did not allow you to go if they offered the intercalation subject themselves.

In terms of being lonely at weekends if staying in placement accommodation they have known their final year placement for a while, so I think a group of them have decided not to get accommodation in Bristol for that year. General lectures, exams etc are more often on line and so there is less need to travel back to the medical school. Plus it is probably cheaper, especially given energy costs, to stay with a friend or even in a BnB if they wanted to come back for a weekend than to keep on a flat. Other medical schools do things differently, so some have a whole year on placement elsewhere and students are expected to find their own accommodation in the hospital town for that year, whilst DD has come across London students doing GP placements outside London in a block and on their own, both of which sound tough, but not unlike what they face for F1/F2.

But all slightly off topic.
Intercalation options: www.intercalate.co.uk/

My understanding is that intercalation can open doors, particularly to more competitive pathways post F1, and may help to develop skills which make you a more competitive applicant for some jobs. DS would probably say about 20% chance he might want to intercalate in something which really interested him such as Sport and Exercise Medicine.

I have always thought a year somewhere else doing something else would have been a very attractive option for those on a medical degree. My DD's university allows external intercalation options, and I have rose-tinted glasses about her going off somewhere for an appealing change...

However, I know it's early days yet as she's only going into 2nd year, but when I mention the possibility, she seems to be very uninterested. Mainly because she has made some very strong friendships that she feels she'll miss out on her social life if she's the only one to take a year out. She doesn't think the other girls in her house feel it's necessary or can afford a 6th year of study. She doesn't want to be a year behind and have to be the new girl in the year below's cohort.

We are lucky that we can help her out financially, but I think it will come down to how she feels about being 'left behind'.

@Needmoresleep apologies for getting personal. Been a tough day for a few reasons. The reason I kicked back was this : Andy

"The message that you can't do something because "you are poor" is a sad one. Yes money helps, but overcoming adversity is also a useful skill to gain. Plenty of less well off students do seem to find a way to find the money."

I'm not sure you fully understand the adversity some students have to overcome. Most of mine can't even afford a driving licence, let alone a car 😊. But I'll leave it all now as we will never agree. Hope your DD gets the Deanary they want. Mine went for anywhere but London.

No idea who Andy is 🫣

NHS salaries are fixed, and depend on progression, so extra degrees add nothing (a shame, as I seem to have accumulated lots!! 😂😂).
They are currently worth a few points for specialty applications, but the fact they have been removed from the points for FY applications suggests specialty application may follow suit. But definitely more to life than money, and hopefully, no future medic will be worrying that hard about it by the time they retire 😂 We say it to encourage them to try and work hard enough to pass first time and not have to resit a year, but not sure it helps much.

Not all unis pay travel costs. My children get the cost of the travel from their Base Unit to their GP Practice, but not to their BU, so have to live in that area, or fund it themselves, and as some of them are 60+ miles away, it is not cheap (I know, having just funded a year for one). It is similar at other unis, I know. And placements are individual for many in final year, so nobody to share costs. Loads do not have a car (or cannot afford to run it!).

Of the med schools I have had reasonable involvement with, there are popular and less popular placements, so you either opt for a less popular one and try and persuade your friends to do the same, or there is a risk of you getting separated. We have seen real pastoral issues of people feeling stranded and isolated, with impacts on mental health. I am all for encouraging resilience, but I think med schools sometimes underestimate the benefits of good peer support, as the need for pastoral input can be avoided for many, if they have their mates about.

There are so many excellent WP programmes and improvements available, but it can feel like the less well off students become a bit abandoned when at uni, particularly in final year, when even full bursary and loan money is not really enough to live on.

My DD definitely wasn't going to intercalate when we were looking at medical schools, but now she is! (after 4th year). She has become very interested in "inclusion healthcare" which I'd never heard of and her intercalation is in population medicine. So, I think that seeing what intercalation options are at various med schools before starting, doesn't always help, as interests develop/ change while they are studying.

I knew that from 5th year they got less funding, but have been shocked by how much less. DD has previously got near the max loan, so the difference is very noticeable. She has saved and will do HCA work this year, so she will be ok. (Also picked Cardiff over Bristol as it's cheaper to live in!)

GANFYD, again a small point, but I don't think all medical schools allow students to select placements. At Bristol students can ask for priority for "in" or "our" placements if they have specific needs, but the rest get what they are given. I seem to remember DD telling me that they had been told clearly that they could not swap. Her experience is that they got better training at some of the smaller hospitals even though initially they sounded less glamorous.

I agree with peperminteas that students will change their minds, or their interests develop as they go through the course. Hence the advice that it is useful to consider how flexible a medical school is likely to be. A five year course with flexibility gives an advantage over a six year course if a student decided that they want to get training over as quickly as possible. It is worth noting that Oxbridge do not allow non Oxbridge students in, nor do they seem to allow their students to go elsewhere.

Of the ones I have been involved with, students can rank their choices, but are not guaranteed to get them - and they do at least 1 more distant placement. I have known students swap, as there is a definite hierarchy of preference, and admin do not seem to care too much, as long as the students sort it. Like all things medicine, different med schools are all doing their own thing!
And yes, they invariably rank the teaching at the more distant placements higher than the central ones - they still want to stay there with their mates, though 😂😂

@Monkey2001 @GANFYD @mumsneedwine can any of you help explain the following query - If my DD already knows that if she doesn't get any Med school offers she would like to take a year out and reapply, can she leave her 5th choice blank? I've heard she should put something down and then withdraw it so I'm assuming it's compulsory to put something down? Also what is the thinking behind leaving it blank/withdrawing it - what path is open to you that wouldn't be open to you if you'd received an offer from your 5th choice? Thanks

@Tiz3 if you have not used all 5 choices you can't use Clearing, and sometimes Medicine is in Clearing, so that is the main reason to put a 5th choice you have no intention of accepting. The other reason is because it gets depressing when all your friends get offers and you have none, and if you put Biomed as a 5th option most will give you an offer very quickly!

Thank you @Monkey2001 so put a 5th choice (on the off chance of a medicine place being available to you through clearing) but is there some reason for withdrawing it before you actually get an offer? A different route that you can only take if you have no offers at all?!

I think that there is UCAS extra for people who applied to five places but have withdrawn or been rejected from all five. I am not too sure how it works but I think it is from May sometime. She doesn't have to put five down now, she can put down four, see how she does in terms of interviews and then if she isn't holding any offers after interviews I think she can register for a fifth and then withdraw it before Extra opens.

Looking at it Extra seems to be from Feb to beginning July but it says on there that you can add another medicine application if rejected for all four if you talk to the university, so perhaps you don't need to apply and then withdraw from a fifth.

@Tiz3 sorry, I was asleep by 9.30 last night. Start of term exhaustion 😊.
Others have answered, so hope that all helps. Putting a 5th choice is optional (you can only apply to one Uni if you like), but it can be nice to just get an offer for something early on. You can decline it at any point, so if medicine appears in Extra (not v likely I'm afraid) it's easy to sort.
We did get students in on result day this year, some with 5th offers and some without, so it is possible either way.

@mumsneedwine & @Unexpecteddrivinginstructor thank you
for your replies I think I've made sense of it now. It sounds like she can apply for her 5th choice and as long as she declines it she would still have the option of both Extra and clearing open to her.

Just got UCAT score 2930 and SJT Band 3 which was a surprise as he was getting Band 1 and Band 2 in practice. What Universities should he avoid based on this result? Thanks

@worstparentever fantastic score. Probably avoid Notts and Kings. It's used at a few Unis as an interview station, so as an example, at Sheffield he'd lose a few points at that station. I'd suggest looking at the spreadsheet attached as he should be able to secure 4 'safe' places for interview.