DD being discouraged from Cambridge by school

[quittingteacher]

Hi all,

I wondered if anyone had any experience and could help guide us. My DD is predicted A*AA and we were contacted at the beginning of Y12 by her school who identified her as a potential Oxbridge candidate.

We signed up for the relevant Cambridge Spring access courses and outreach courses (we qualify as disadvantaged due to our postcode). At all of the Cambridge webinars attended, they made a point of saying that it's a myth that you need all 8s and 9s at GCSEs and to ignore this advice given by well meaning people.

My DD didn't do fantastically in her GCSEs and has only now in sixth form realised her actual potential.
Her grades were 555666677.

Anyway, now we are in Y13, her school have told her she shouldn't be applying to Oxbridge as her GCSE grades aren't strong enough. I'm really annoyed as it was the school who encouraged us to think about Oxbridge last year.

My DD has since been invited by the outreach team at Cambridge to an interview prep webinar that is specifically for those who would usually count as eligible for contextual offers elsewhere. But DD's Head of Year is adamant she is wasting her time.

My DD doesn't have her heart set on Cambridge and we know that the odds are against her getting in. But she'd like to at least have a try.

I don't want to keep encouraging her if it's completely unrealistic but I don't want to discourage her if actually, she has some chance.

If anyone has any advice, experience or insider knowledge, I'd be most grateful.

• that’s meant to be 3x A stars

Which ones ask for A A A*?

I can only see Downing and Gonville and Caius at A A A, the rest A* A A. A. Quite a bit of variation in subject requirements, though.

Not sure where the rogue A came from...

On the UCAS reference point, the reference is for all choices, not Cambridge specific, so the school would be very shitty to make it watery because of Cambridge and thereby screw up other high tariff unis for the DD.

That said, the DDs profile won't get a Cambridge place without a mitigating explanation for the GCSE grades, especially without either Maths and Biology. A prediction of three A at A level might make someone look twice, but one A almost certainly won't. It's probably much better to focus on five other unis that she'd really like instead, and to gear her personal statement towards those.

Has she looked at this: lots of useful info on the course and admissions:

www.pbs.tripos.cam.ac.uk/prospective/faq/faq-pbs-tripos-course

Specifically on the maths/bio background,

Subjects that show you can understand the scientific and mathematical basis of psychology are helpful, given that 50% of the compulsory papers focus on statistics and neuroscience. About two thirds of our students have studied either Maths or Biology or both at A level. These are not formal requirements, but applicants should be confident about working across the psychological sciences, from the social psychology of human behaviour, to the workings of neurotransmitters in sensory perception. Applicants should also be confident in their mathematical ability. Indeed college interviews may well include maths based questions, so if you haven’t done any maths at A-Level, you may wish to brush up on your GCSE maths prior to the interview. That is not to discourage students who have not done maths or science A-Levels, indeed our analyses have not shown any significant difference in university performance between PBS students who did or did not take either subject. One reason for this may be that there are a number of opportunities (often organised by colleges) for students without A level Maths / Biology to have a few ‘catch up’ supervisions. Another reason is that we will be looking for these abilities at interview. Some colleges may place more emphasis on science or humanities results than others – so check the individual college website.

To a lesser degree this will affect her other applications as well.

Op, no risk no reward, better to try and fail than not try at all

Some statistical data about applicants and the A levels they offer: www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/655017/response/1556703/attach/3/FOI%202020%20251%20Williams%20data.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1

If link doesn't work, you can download from www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/655017/response/1556703/attach/html/3/FOI%202020%20251%20Williams%20data.pdf.html

I wish kids wouldn't stress about these things - so many people have degrees that we actively look for people without them and for those with it's all about personality not whether they've been to Oxbridge. I would prefer if my kids went somewhere a bit less stressful. If she really wants to go I think the GCSEs will be irrelevant if she gets fantastic a levels - but I do struggle to understand how someone with that level of GCSEs will step up so much at a level. She doesn't sound like she's a natural academic and so maybe that's why the school are saying don't do it - it's not that she won't get in it more is that really the best option for someone who doesn't just glide through their GCSEs

I think the GCSEs are CAGs, so the school they were taken at, & how they administered them, will be more important than the student. It may be that the school only looked at previous cohorts and awarded grades that matched, so might not be as good as student would have achieved. A levels are 'real' so could easily be much much better.
This year group have had it tough.

flippertyop but your line of work may not be what all kids are looking for.

Well of course not - I'm just making the point that enormous pressure is put in kids when actually an element of diversity can now be an advantage. I'm pretty sure before long even the most prestigious of occupations will be looking at quotas to ensure they are not all oxbrige Alumni

Perfectly valid point about diversity but even Oxbridge graduates aren't predominantly Bullingdon types anymore. There are reasons some pathways like to recruit Oxbridge graduates. Ability being the obvious one.

If they were CAGS they would have been in line with contextual if subject to algorithm and can be assumed to be better once the algorithm disappeared. If the student achieved 5s and 6s on CAGS due to rankings it would further harm her case so to speak as it would appear she was not highly ranked. So I wouldn't try to argue that she would have achieved better. If it was an odd low grade maybe but there are quite a few lower grades in that list.

[quote mumsneedwine]@Daisysway I'm sure Surrey is lovely but never lived or worked there 😊. Big 6th form I'm referring to is in Hampshire - schools don't have 6th forms.
Not sure how state schools can afford to run A level courses with less than 10 students these days. They just have a private money supply. My classes gone from 16 to 26 in recent years due to cut in 6th form funding. [/quote]
@mumsneedwine
Tbf it is only just over the border of Surrey, assuming you mean the one I think you meant. Many from Surrey there (dc#1 went there)

Depends on how the school works. DD2's only got 2 people doing Further Maths in her year, for example. Normally they combine year 12 and 13, but there weren't any in the year above so they had a year where they were on their own. But even with both years, it would rarely be more than 6.

The school reckons that sometimes it's worth taking a small hit in the A-level subjects to keep the 6th form going. Many local schools have given up on 6th forms due to the one you mention taking huge numbers and making it look enticing in many ways (could comment after dc#1's experience) so having one is definitely an asset both in attracting staff and pupils. (yes, people do think of that in year 7, I know of several for whom that was more than just the deciding factor)

@SeasonFinale for some schools they interpreted the rules in a different way and did not predict higher than usual, even if students deserved more. So many got much lower grades than they deserved.
Was v v unfair and why lots of Unis will be taking GCSEs with a healthy dose of caution this year.

@MargaretThursday mine went there too and loved it 🤷‍♀️. Although PS is even bigger and no where near Surrey. If schools can afford to take a hit on 6th form funding I'd love to know where the funding is being found from. Most schools can't afford that luxury these days - few years ago was v possible but since funding rules changed it's almost impossible unfortunately.

@mumsneedwine dc#1 loved it, but some of the teaching left a lot to be desired. Dc#1 had several lessons taught on things that weren't on the syllabus (and certainly at least wrongly taught as well) for example.

With dd2's 6th form they offer fewer subjects but expect to be full/nearly full in most of them. They have found that if they stop offering a subject one year because of lack of take up, then it has a knock on effect with those the next year when students are choosing between them and the sixth form.
I suspect also with FM I think there's a couple of the teachers who love teaching it so that probably helps.
There's probably more to it that that, but I don't know (dh might as a governor, but he probably wouldn't tell!)

@MargaretThursday you're v lucky that the school can manage to fund it 😊. We would love to teach all subjects every year but just can't afford the timetabling.
My DD is now a 4th year medical student so F might have changed since she left - they did ok by her though.

[quote mumsneedwine]@MargaretThursday you're v lucky that the school can manage to fund it 😊. We would love to teach all subjects every year but just can't afford the timetabling.
My DD is now a 4th year medical student so F might have changed since she left - they did ok by her though. [/quote]
@mumsneedwine

Yes. Very lucky.
Your dd would be year above mine. Chemistry was one of the really bad ones, which I assume your dd did. There was apparently one chemistry teacher who was better, but dd's often didn't teach in lessons, then would set huge amounts of homework to make up, and would spend the time chatting about nothing and what he did teach was often wrong (dh has a DPhil in Chemistry). I've a friend whose dc has just started and they've got the same one and he hasn't changed.
That was just the beginning of it.

What makes Cambridge and Oxford e.g. Oxbridge seem the apex to aim for ? What is it about the institutions that they do better or more of compared to universities in general ?

@MargaretThursday 😳 sounds like mine was lucky. Both her chemistry teachers were really good.

Perhaps I have missed a post or two. I cannot understand why the school is discouraging from applying at this early stage.

It's not early, the application needs to be in 15 October.

[quote mumsneedwine]@SeasonFinale for some schools they interpreted the rules in a different way and did not predict higher than usual, even if students deserved more. So many got much lower grades than they deserved.
Was v v unfair and why lots of Unis will be taking GCSEs with a healthy dose of caution this year. [/quote]
I appreciate that but I did say the grades would still reflect that she wasn't highly ranked.

@SeasonFinale she could have been ranked 1 but still have got low grades. Some schools did this because they were following previous years data.