DD being discouraged from Cambridge by school

[quittingteacher]

Hi all,

I wondered if anyone had any experience and could help guide us. My DD is predicted A*AA and we were contacted at the beginning of Y12 by her school who identified her as a potential Oxbridge candidate.

We signed up for the relevant Cambridge Spring access courses and outreach courses (we qualify as disadvantaged due to our postcode). At all of the Cambridge webinars attended, they made a point of saying that it's a myth that you need all 8s and 9s at GCSEs and to ignore this advice given by well meaning people.

My DD didn't do fantastically in her GCSEs and has only now in sixth form realised her actual potential.
Her grades were 555666677.

Anyway, now we are in Y13, her school have told her she shouldn't be applying to Oxbridge as her GCSE grades aren't strong enough. I'm really annoyed as it was the school who encouraged us to think about Oxbridge last year.

My DD has since been invited by the outreach team at Cambridge to an interview prep webinar that is specifically for those who would usually count as eligible for contextual offers elsewhere. But DD's Head of Year is adamant she is wasting her time.

My DD doesn't have her heart set on Cambridge and we know that the odds are against her getting in. But she'd like to at least have a try.

I don't want to keep encouraging her if it's completely unrealistic but I don't want to discourage her if actually, she has some chance.

If anyone has any advice, experience or insider knowledge, I'd be most grateful.

@Newgirls Nothing you're saying shocks me; you're just wrong.

@mellicauli

Depends on the subject..Anglo Saxon Norse and Celtic has a 60% acceptance rate.

I know someone who applied for this and skipped over another degree course after a few weeks…I think it might have been a strategic application!

Has she spoken to the teacher who will be doing her reference?

[quote Innocenta]@Newgirls Nothing you're saying shocks me; you're just wrong. [/quote]
Anyone can read the cam website and see for themselves 🤷‍♀️ If they are studying texts post 1970s great! They should tell prospective students about it.

@Newgirls You're simply demonstrating you don't understand the culture of teaching and learning at Cambridge. There's no point even trying to explain it to you when you've already made up your mind and aren't interested in anything more than vague assumptions!

Sorry for the tangent but I cannot believe anyone would seriously suggest that it s easy to get an offer from Oxbridge in Music or Classics.

As for the English course at Cambridge, I graduated 10 years ago and my final year dissertation was on a modern poet and included work on poems of his that had been published that year. Unlike English courses at other unis students have enormous freedom to follow their own interests because teaching is largely done via supervisions 1:1 or 1:2, so you can write about what you like. At Bristol my sister had seminars in groups of 10 and they all had to write about the same thing.

I still think it would be helpful for the OP to say what subject her DD is applying for as it may affect the advice given.

@Jujujuly Yes, exactly. I'm dying to give some examples of things I know very, very recent undergraduates have done in-depth work on - the reason I can't is that it's literally unique, innovative work. (Yes, at undergraduate level!) The Cambridge English degree is very much what you make it.

[quote Innocenta]@Newgirls You're simply demonstrating you don't understand the culture of teaching and learning at Cambridge. There's no point even trying to explain it to you when you've already made up your mind and aren't interested in anything more than vague assumptions! [/quote]
Perhaps you need to remove your blinkers and look at other uni English courses to compare?

I’m glad some students are able to write about more contemporary authors in their third year. What % of the work is that?

How many authors are on the curriculum who aren’t white? Compare to courses at Leeds for example which are more diverse. Or Newcastle with more creative writing and drama modules.

Anyway my point to the OP was to hope her daughter has time to research courses and visit places before making her application. Cam is a great place to study but make sure the course is one you will enjoy and sounds like ask some current students on student room for advice if time.

The very fact that you think in terms of % and 'on the curriculum' illustrates your failure to evaluate Oxbridge-type teaching correctly, @Newgirls - it's entirely possible to study many authors of colour at both Cambridge and Oxford. You're only showing your own limited understanding, I'm afraid. If you read English (?), I'm perfectly willing to accept that perhaps your college was rigid and perhaps at that time the teaching you received was not diverse or well-delivered - it would be ludicrous for me to claim everyone who has ever gone to Oxbridge and read English has had a good experience!

But you are claiming to be able to talk about the current courses and teaching styles, and you are incorrect about those.

Also, if you actually review my posts, I've never said Oxbridge is the be-all and end-all. There are many fantastic universities and whenever I comment on threads about possible Oxbridge candidates, I acknowledge that. However, I have been lucky enough to have a very Oxbridge-saturated experience, and I choose to pass on what I can to potential applicants. I'm really not sure why you're on the thread if all you want to do is trash the courses' content; I'm sure OP's intelligent daughter is more than capable of making up her own mind.

@Newgirls I’m not sure why you’re really pushing this point - I don’t think you really understand how the course works? There are no writers (apart from Shakespeare) “on the curriculum” as such - you choose who and what you want to write about.

All students can (and indeed must) write about contemporary authors in their first and/or second years (compulsory module covering 1930 to the present day, plus a free choice dissertation) and in their third year (numerous modules and options focusing on contemporary literature, plus one or two free choice dissertations). There is a huge amount of freedom to follow your own interests. Creative writing isn’t taught but you can submit work and have it count towards your final mark. similarly, it’s missing the point to say there are no “drama modules” when you could practically write about nothing but drama for the whole 3 years.

I’m not trashing cam - I went there myself and I’ve said positive things on here if you read back! I know countless people who loved their time at cam but INSPITE of their courses which some found a drag in the first year in particular. I am saying read the course outlines.

Perhaps your time would be better spent asking cam to update the website info if it’s not accurate and you feel it’s getting a bad rep?

To all the people saying that the OP's DD has no chance as she doesn't have a string of 9s and 4 A* predictions because people they know who achieved those results didn't get in....

Perhaps those 9s and A* were spoon-fed in small teaching groups with lots of individual attention. If I only had 5 in my GCSE group instead of 29, I reckon I could get them all up to grade 9. It doesn't make them the sort of creative, flexible and quick thinkers that Cambridge is looking for. It means that they were well taught/drilled and could answer enough questions on an exam (looking pre-Covid). They are different things.

The people asking about the context of the GCSE grades are on the money in my opinion. Whist they are not the most stunning grades I've seen, they aren't terrible. If they were stellar IN THE CONTEXT of the school in which she took them, Cambridge will consider her. With the shit-show that was 2020 GCSEs, lots of state schools were wary of over-estimating grades. The resulting algorithm demonstrated that by pulling loads of them down, particularly in those schools whose previous track records were not great. As an experienced teacher, I spent hours on video calls with my line manager going over every single piece of evidence we had of every student, trying to be fair but not too generous. We had to rank them all - there is one Music group in my school and that cohort had 18 students. It look us hours to agree a rank order. We would have loved to have predicted them all 9s but had the exams taken place, we know they wouldn't all have got them. We tried to be fair and reasonable. Perhaps the school where the DD sat her GCSEs did something similar. After all, she didn't actually do any exams, so people saying how poor they are need to look at what happened in a great number of schools. By the time the government performed its U-turn, teacher involvement was long over.

Finally @Newgirls as you seem very interested in Music at Cambridge and what is not covered on the course, I need to point out that if my students were interested in productions or directing, I would encourage them to look elsewhere. My friend's DD graduated in Music from Cambridge a couple of years ago. She did loads of performing and composing, had to write essays each week and also studied conducting, both choral and orchestral. My own degree back in the day (not O/C) had many fewer essays and performances and no taught conducting whatsoever. Things have changed and whilst they may not be contemporary enough for all, they seem to have no problem attracting excellent students onto their courses.

I've not commented on this post and don't claim any expertise but it seems to me that must unis for most subjects offer a place to most students applying (historically. I appreciate that this year might be different given grade inflation but we have to hope that they will be doing normal A levels next year so unis can feel comfortable with their normal algorithms). So, unless your DD is applying for massively over subscribed courses (medicine, economics, PPE spring to mind but possibly also some engineering courses), she's very likely to get 4 other offers and so can definitely afford a wild card in applying to Cambridge. If she is going for one of the more over-subscribed courses then she maybe needs to be a bit more cautious. However, as I've said, in not an expert and happy to be told my advice is incorrect!

[quote SeasonFinale]@TractorAndHeadphones You have stated here and on another thread about it being easier to get into "less competitive" courses. Actually Cambridge does on occasion make no offers rather than take people for bums on seats for such courses and use the space for a "more competitive" course instead.

Perhaps you have had experience of someone you consider not worthy of an Oxbridge place getting in and thus this feeds your narrative.

Whilst Cambridge does not put as much weighting on the gcse grades I would be extremely surprised if anyone with the OP's DD gcse profile and with a one A* prediction would receive an interview/offer.

However, as others have pointed out it is her application and thus her choice. In a year where it will be difficult to get offers from many competitive unis for competitive courses she may well be better off using that 5th choice for somewhere else.[/quote]
@SeasonFinale
Most successful applicants to a competitive course surpass the minimum requirements. There is need for extra filtering as Cam can’t take all of them but in a world with infinite places many more would get in and all perform to a high standard.

In a non-competitive course however meeting the minimum entry requirements is often sufficient to receive an interview as you don’t have to choose between 10 equally deserving people, only 2. If either of the 2 are borderline might as well invite both and see how they perform.

Bear in mind that the official entry requirements on the Cambridge website relates to A-Level results and AAA is the minimum for many courses including Classics and Art History. For Computer Science you need an extra A. Thé website specially states that GCSE grades are not an official entry requirement.

Please don’t accuse other people of having ‘narratives’ when you’re incapable of logical thinking and research. And don’t put people off applying when the website states otherwise.

@Chilldonaldchill

I've not commented on this post and don't claim any expertise but it seems to me that must unis for most subjects offer a place to most students applying (historically. I appreciate that this year might be different given grade inflation but we have to hope that they will be doing normal A levels next year so unis can feel comfortable with their normal algorithms). So, unless your DD is applying for massively over subscribed courses (medicine, economics, PPE spring to mind but possibly also some engineering courses), she's very likely to get 4 other offers and so can definitely afford a wild card in applying to Cambridge. If she is going for one of the more over-subscribed courses then she maybe needs to be a bit more cautious. However, as I've said, in not an expert and happy to be told my advice is incorrect!

You’re correct.

Also OP’s DD using her other 4 offers - if she puts 4 ‘aspirational’ universities and got such bad grades that all 4 rejected her an extra 5th of the same câliber isn’t going to make a difference.
2/3 aspirational and 1 safe at least should cover all bases

@TractorAndHeadphones

You clearly are unaware of what I actually do for a living but do crack on with your own assumptions

"Her head of year has told her that she cannot apply"

God this makes me SO angry. Mine said the same to me. There's nothing stopping her: she makes the decision about where she applies, not the school. The school and these teachers are only in her life for another year - after that they'll never see her again. Where do they get off making statements like this? Idiots. People like this should not be in the teaching profession.

Oxbridge aren't part of UCAS so she loses absolutely nothing by applying. If she doesn't get in, at least she'll have tried.

Beyond this stage nobody gives a crap about GCSEs. I strongly suggest that if she doesnt get in but does really well in her a levels that she takes a year out and reapplies with her actual a level grades

@YukoandHiro Oxbridge aren't part of UCAS so she loses absolutely nothing by applying. If she doesn't get in, at least she'll have tried.

Not sure what you mean by this. You do apply via UCAS, take any relevant assessment and submit examples of work then candidates are selected for interview after which offers are made. Op's dd has nothing to lose by applying but she would still need school support to prepare for the process.

Sorry to derail but what is the outreach team and how can I get in touch? My DS is applying from Scotland and I've never been told by the school there's an outreach team.

Why on earth would you not apply.

www.ox.ac.uk/oxfordforScotland#:~:text=Oxford%20for%20Scotland%20is%20coordinated,students%2C%20their%20teachers%20and%20families.

Slightly messy link Puffalicious but that's where your DS might start.

I changed school for 6th form. My new school was much more academic. They didn't think I was oxbridge material based on my qualifications before arriving at them (all top grades, but not enough of them - my old school only let you do 7. I actually did an extra one in the mornings before school with the support of a teacher and got a top grade. At new school all kids did 10.)

With an air of review I think the school were mistaken and I slightly regret not applying. Nothing ventured. Nothing gained.