DD being discouraged from Cambridge by school

[quittingteacher]

Hi all,

I wondered if anyone had any experience and could help guide us. My DD is predicted A*AA and we were contacted at the beginning of Y12 by her school who identified her as a potential Oxbridge candidate.

We signed up for the relevant Cambridge Spring access courses and outreach courses (we qualify as disadvantaged due to our postcode). At all of the Cambridge webinars attended, they made a point of saying that it's a myth that you need all 8s and 9s at GCSEs and to ignore this advice given by well meaning people.

My DD didn't do fantastically in her GCSEs and has only now in sixth form realised her actual potential.
Her grades were 555666677.

Anyway, now we are in Y13, her school have told her she shouldn't be applying to Oxbridge as her GCSE grades aren't strong enough. I'm really annoyed as it was the school who encouraged us to think about Oxbridge last year.

My DD has since been invited by the outreach team at Cambridge to an interview prep webinar that is specifically for those who would usually count as eligible for contextual offers elsewhere. But DD's Head of Year is adamant she is wasting her time.

My DD doesn't have her heart set on Cambridge and we know that the odds are against her getting in. But she'd like to at least have a try.

I don't want to keep encouraging her if it's completely unrealistic but I don't want to discourage her if actually, she has some chance.

If anyone has any advice, experience or insider knowledge, I'd be most grateful.

@MauveMavis
But this DD doesn’t have an 8 or 9 grade at gcse so no top grades at all. Mostly 5 and 6 grades.

What are the stats like on successful applications with these GCSE results? Cambridge might not look at these results but surely few successful candidates come with no grade 8 or 9s at all or A*s in the previous world?

The Op stated that her dd attends a good London Catholic school on another post . I'm not sure how anyone can criticise a school who looks to be incredibly proactive on the Oxbridge widening participation front because they were identifying students in yr12. We don't know how many DC they are supporting Oxbridge applications for this year. There maybe several students who they feel are academically more able and have in their eyes (and knowledge) a much better chance of getting an interview or offer.

Its totally up to the Ops dd whether to apply with average GCSEs noting that the A level predicted grades will need to be achieved in actual exams against the knowledge that grades will be moderated down compared to the last 2 years cohorts.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained but a bit of realism too...she maybe a late bloomer but I still think Cambridge would look to see a few higher grades at GCSE especially in subjects that maybe related to the course she is applying for...

If a school doesn’t recommend this university, what would their position be in writing a reference? How could they say this DD is the bees knees when they know they have others who are better? Surely that’s a difficult position for them?

A school reference would not compare her to other pupils who they might think more deserving, just endorse her suitability, skills and commitment. They seem to have earmarked her previously and the reference probably already written.

@lizs are schools not asked to state where students rank within their given subjects (oxbridge) .. Eg student A is ranked 6 within a class of 8. I've certainly seen this on threads.

Not as far as I am aware, it is meaningless anyway since each cohort will vary.

@Daisysway that doesn't work v well for cohorts of 600. Local 6th form college has 600+ studying maths, 1/3 will get A/A star, so being in top 200 is great. Cohort placing only really works with small classes (which tend to be at private schools). Even we have 90 studying A level chemistry and I have 15 of them who I would say are equally top.

@mumsneedwine... More schools have smaller cohorts than large including most state schools.. It maybe different in London and Surrey but not in a lot of other areas..

I was advised by my school to apply to Oxford rather than Cambridge and PPE not pure economics - because I had a C at maths GCSE.

I was definitely a beneficiary of the looking at my GCSE results in the context of the results the school got. It was a comically bad school!

I got the beat GCSEs in my school but they where way below the universal straight As got by everyone I then went to sixth form with.

I got the best A levels in my sixth form (vastly, vastly better school) and it was that massive improvement that I think got me in.

But I am also aware that I was an exception rather than the rule and normally you'd have to get better GCSEs than that. At least a couple of 8/9s in the subject she wants to study.

@Daisysway I'm sure Surrey is lovely but never lived or worked there 😊. Big 6th form I'm referring to is in Hampshire - schools don't have 6th forms.
Not sure how state schools can afford to run A level courses with less than 10 students these days. They just have a private money supply. My classes gone from 16 to 26 in recent years due to cut in 6th form funding.

Looking at Catholic schools in London (according to Gov site). All have a total A level cohort less than 100....

@quittingteacher what has he got to lose by applying ! He has 4 other choices so if it doesn't work then he will still get offers. But he'll never know if he doesn't try.
Context within his cohort is v important so if he's out performed his school average then it will be taken into account. Good luck.

@Daisysway exactly. A private money supply. Called the church.

If it’s a grammar school, outperforming the cohort is difficult.

So the Ops dd is probably in classes the same size as private school's classes... I would expect to see her performance improve and Cambridge will realise its the small classes that have made a difference.. Will this be enough though...

Nothing ventured nothing gained but I'm guessing the school reference will be a difficult one because no school wants to loose credibility with Oxbridge (putting other applications at risk) by stating a student is an ideal candidate when they have their doubts.

Thanks goodbye that's brilliant.

Sorry all, I haven't been on here for a while.

For those enquiring about class sizes and chosen subject- she is doing Geography, Religious Studies and Psychology A-Levels with around 25 pupils in each class. She wants to apply to the Psychology course (it's called something else that I can't think of off the top of my head) and her A* prediction is in Psychology.

Not having maths and/or biology will be a bit of a negative - not a deal breaker, but it will affect which colleges she can apply to.

What is her psychology teacher saying about her application strategy, apart from the A* prediction?

What grade did she get for her maths GCSE?

I'm simply asking because you need to be confident in analysing & manipulating data. It's no fun picking a course like psychology or economics of you struggle with numbers.

With her predicted A-level grades, particularly as she's a candidate who is now at a different sixth form from the school where she didn't actually sit GCSEs, and a glowing reference that talks up her work ethic and passionate application to her subjects, there's no reason why she shouldn't apply.

I don't have any specialist knowledge of Cambridge and the likelihood of getting in there, but there's surely scope within her five choices to apply to a range of good universities without worrying about 'wasting' an option.

She's a good candidate. Get the personal statement right and she will be considered by universities. Most students choose two universities that they would actually like to go to and three that they are fine with or not that bothered by. There's plenty of room for manoeuvre.

With those predicted grades and evidence of a rapid upward trajectory, I'd want to be as ambitious as possible and not leave doors closed that might just be pushed open.

Having said that, does she really like the sound of the course and the lifestyle? She would have to convince an admissions tutor that she really wants to do that particular set of work.

Looking at the Cambridge Psychology dept web site is interesting. Firstly it says they look at your examination record. That Mira not just A levels. They also had 776 applications for less than 70 places. They expect applicant numbers to rise and are already holding 12 deferred places.

It seems you can swerve Maths and Biology entrance tests (if me reading is correct regarding choices) but not having either of these at A level must sure be a huge negative for Cambridge. In fact they make a point you don’t need Psychology A level at all. Reasoning and critical thinking are key to passing tests I think!

Overall I do think this DD is unlikely to get a place and the school is right. There are so many other options for this subject but no biology or maths is a worry for top university places.

That implies not not just A levels that should read.

OP you’ve probably seen this:
www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/files/publications/pbs_subject_requirements.pdf

Some colleges say their typical offer is AAA* at A level, some require at least one maths/science subject (psychology doesn’t count), so the pool of possible colleges for your DD is reduced already and the vast majority of applicants will probably satisfy those criteria anyway.

I think it’s probably an uphill struggle. What did she get in maths and science at GCSE? If those were the 5s then it might be worth a serious rethink.