DD being discouraged from Cambridge by school

[quittingteacher]

Hi all,

I wondered if anyone had any experience and could help guide us. My DD is predicted A*AA and we were contacted at the beginning of Y12 by her school who identified her as a potential Oxbridge candidate.

We signed up for the relevant Cambridge Spring access courses and outreach courses (we qualify as disadvantaged due to our postcode). At all of the Cambridge webinars attended, they made a point of saying that it's a myth that you need all 8s and 9s at GCSEs and to ignore this advice given by well meaning people.

My DD didn't do fantastically in her GCSEs and has only now in sixth form realised her actual potential.
Her grades were 555666677.

Anyway, now we are in Y13, her school have told her she shouldn't be applying to Oxbridge as her GCSE grades aren't strong enough. I'm really annoyed as it was the school who encouraged us to think about Oxbridge last year.

My DD has since been invited by the outreach team at Cambridge to an interview prep webinar that is specifically for those who would usually count as eligible for contextual offers elsewhere. But DD's Head of Year is adamant she is wasting her time.

My DD doesn't have her heart set on Cambridge and we know that the odds are against her getting in. But she'd like to at least have a try.

I don't want to keep encouraging her if it's completely unrealistic but I don't want to discourage her if actually, she has some chance.

If anyone has any advice, experience or insider knowledge, I'd be most grateful.

Are you a long way from Cambridge? If not I don't know why you are prevaricating. Imv even if she doesn't get in it's a place and experience she can compare to the others when she looks for a uni she likes. Just go.

Have a go. My school told me not to bother applying to Cambridge. I now have undergrad and postgrad degrees from there and opportunities I could never have imagined. Glad I ignored them! To be honest, I had better GCSE grades, but that was before contextual offers.

The worst that can happen is they say no, just don’t build it up to be a huge thing so that she’s not overly disappointed if she doesn’t get an offer.

We live in London. I'm asking for advice as her head of year has firmly told her that no, she cannot apply.
I've told DD that her application is her own and only she gets to decide where she applies, not her head of year.

Whilst it is worth a try, the school is correct that normally those GCSEs will not result in an offer without some underlying reason - eg illness, bereavement etc. DD's friend who was predicted 3* (and got them) didn't get an interview because GCSEs were b's

Presumably her GCSEs were CAGs so perhaps will be taken with a large pinch of salt.

I feel really bad about being negative OP, so sorry about that. If she really doesn’t care, then give it a go. I don’t work in Cambridge admissions! I’m just talking from experience (last cycle) as I know maybe 30 or so who applied with all 8s/ 9s at GCSE and at least two A*s at A-level, but none got a place. Also, it’s all very well saying ‘just give it a go’ but the way the application process is structured means it’s hard not to get invested. You don’t say what subject she’s applying for, but there may well be an entrance exam to prepare for. Many subjects require you to send in essays pre-interview. The interviews themselves require preparation (probably she will have 2 interviews). It’s not the kind of thing you can really do half-heartedly. You have to be prepared to really give it your best shot. It’s not like other unis where you just send off the form and wait and see. Also, next year, the interviews are likely to be back in person which means travelling there. I think it was easier last year because it was all on Zoom and many had never set foot in the place.

[quote quittingteacher]@pi1ar thanks.

It's odd but the fact that thousands of applicants with straight 9s are rejected every year makes DD feel that it's worth applying as most people don't get in anyway.
She knows the odds are against her and so doesn't feel the pressure to get in and doesn't see it as a failure if she doesn't.
I'm not sure I'm explaining myself very well, sorry![/quote]
I think this is great - why stop her then? It sounds like she is psychologically prepared for rejection and all the research says that failures are character building and good learning experiences. I think it would be much more damaging to give her the message of limiting her aspirations so early on.

And.... it's not something she necessarily needs to give up on even if rejected first time? If she were really determined, she could work for a year (maybe even in a related field to what she wants to study?) and apply with her much better A levels under her belt later?

Good for her for turning her academics around and being up for a challenge!

What has she got to lose by trying? She has 4 other choices on her UCAS application
Absolutely this.

Does the subject have a pre-interview / at-interview assessment?

What subject does she want to study and what were her GCSE results in that subject/related subjects? If she wants to do say History then 5s in the sciences might be less of an issue than 5 in History would be.

Tbh I think she’d be lucky to get an offer with those grades, but if she wants to have a go and knows that it’s a long shot then she should do it. The interview etc is a useful learning experience in itself.

@SmallGreenStripes

She doesn’t need all 8’s and 9’s, but I would say those grades at GCSE are too low for them to consider her. Sorry.

I'm afraid I agree. Although Oxford and Cambridge will consider contextual information, they use that more as tie breakers, rather than making large allowances and letting kids in with much lower grades than usual. Oxford especially pays attention to GCSEs. In the course of my work have seen the cvs of numerous Oxford students and it is vanishingly rare to see fewer than half at the top grades (8/9). To have none at all would be highly unusual. Oxford publish these stats.

Cambridge sets slightly less store on GCSEs and interviews more. The interviews are rigorous though.

There's nothing to lose of course by applying - five UCAS choices is a lot, you can spare an off-chance, provided you are sure she can take the rejection. My eldest was rejected from Cambridge and it still rankles almost a decade later!

Outreach people will never say 'don't apply' because really what does it matter to them, it looks like they've done their job and it's easy enough to do the first sift or of the weaker applications.

Have been a head of sixth form and I think the only time I would have discouraged a student was if a level grades were way off and the application process becomes a distraction to doing well. It's worth asking head of year why. In my experience gcse results are not the be all and end all. Where did your daughter do her gcses? What type of school? Universities in general are interested in the current picture. What has led to your daughter's sharp upward trajectory? If I were her head of sixth then I'd be shining a light on that in her reference. And you are right it is her application. Get the school on side. Ask them what is holding them back from supporting the application. I feel there is something more to why beyond the gcses.

The school are talking nonsense. If she wants to go to Cambridge she should apply to Cambridge and see what happens. They love interesting people from backgrounds that aren’t just the usual story. And they are bright enough to understand that people change.

My GCSE grades weren’t awful but not As. My school was not in a good area. We then moved for A-level and I started getting predicted As. Cambridge loved this and the things I said at interview (the interview is hugely important) and that’s where I went.

Just give it a try. The worst they can do is say no. Don’t let her get her heart set on it though, there are plenty of great universities and Cambridge has it’s advantages but is also a lotta work! (Not sure I’d choose it if I had my time again.)

@Jujujuly good point over which subject at GCSE and subject she wants to study

Because covid has messed up so many kids' GCSE results, Oxbridge will give them lower weighting (although in deprived areas they're often disregarded provided predicted grades are excellent). She should get an interview at least, so interview prep is the way to go.

@quittingteacher please come back and tell us how your dd gets on.

@Skysblue is bang on about interview too.

Is there an application fee to Cambridge? Maybe school would have to pay and don't feel it would be worth it. Just a thought.

Go for it. It's one slot on the form. I was a mature student so things were slightly different, but I was accepted a few years ago with the letter-grade equivalent of three 7s, two 5s and a 3. The 3 was in the subject I was applying to study 🤣

The ones who get a place aren't always the people everyone assumes will get a place, meaning that there's no shame attached to trying and not getting in, because loads of really smart people are in that position. Cambridge moves in a mysterious way.

Thank you so much everyone. I will definitely come back and update either way.

@PhiRhoSigma as one of those outreach people I can tell you we absolutely don’t give false hope! If a student isn’t in with a realistic chance we tell them (whether they listen is different). It’s something I have to do more than I’d like, but we also try and help them find an alternative

Fucking hell how unsupportive can the school be? I would totally understand if she had her heart set on it and was unrealistic but if she’s sensible and been on the outreach courses and they’ve been positive why shouldn’t she apply?

FWIW Cambridge were, at least in the past, very focused on the interview rather than anything else. A few of my DHs friends did not do well in GCSEs but got in on the basis of interviews and the college recognising that they didn’t go to great schools but had the intellect to do well.

I’d tell her to go for it if the college reply that they’d be happy to consider her based on her application/interview rather than her GSCEs.

I am less concerned about the GCSEs than the predicted A levels.

Schools always predict optimistically and i would expect most Oxbridge candidates to be AAA at least on predicts, with the A being in a subject not that related to the application. Most will be predicted wall-to-walk A*.

Cambridge are looking at the top 0.5% of the country (or roundabout) and even many exceptional candidates are disappointed.

@PaulGallico

I would encourage your daughter to engage with the University- she has nothing to lose. You will get a range of responses on an Internet forum. I would be interested to know the background of the posters telling that your daughter will be unsuccessful. Where does this expertise come from - do they work at the university, experience of a recent application...??

I felt much the same many years ago. Very little encouragement from my school but I applied and got in. If she’s not dead set in it it’ll be a good experience.

@TheReluctantPhoenix

I am less concerned about the GCSEs than the predicted A levels.

Schools always predict optimistically and i would expect most Oxbridge candidates to be AAA at least on predicts, with the A being in a subject not that related to the application. Most will be predicted wall-to-walk A*.

Cambridge are looking at the top 0.5% of the country (or roundabout) and even many exceptional candidates are disappointed.

In recent years - the focus is now largely on the exam followed by the interview. Some practice and advice with that would be helpful.

She should apply. An increase in attainment like that suggests she wasn't performing up to her ability before - she may well do even better as an undergraduate (wherever she studies).

No, she isn't guaranteed a place and may well not get in. But no one is guaranteed! I studied at an Oxbridge college and I would hope they'd be interested nowadays in children with diverse paths to high achievement at 17/18. Would she be interested in the Cambridge preparatory year?