DD being discouraged from Cambridge by school

[quittingteacher]

Hi all,

I wondered if anyone had any experience and could help guide us. My DD is predicted A*AA and we were contacted at the beginning of Y12 by her school who identified her as a potential Oxbridge candidate.

We signed up for the relevant Cambridge Spring access courses and outreach courses (we qualify as disadvantaged due to our postcode). At all of the Cambridge webinars attended, they made a point of saying that it's a myth that you need all 8s and 9s at GCSEs and to ignore this advice given by well meaning people.

My DD didn't do fantastically in her GCSEs and has only now in sixth form realised her actual potential.
Her grades were 555666677.

Anyway, now we are in Y13, her school have told her she shouldn't be applying to Oxbridge as her GCSE grades aren't strong enough. I'm really annoyed as it was the school who encouraged us to think about Oxbridge last year.

My DD has since been invited by the outreach team at Cambridge to an interview prep webinar that is specifically for those who would usually count as eligible for contextual offers elsewhere. But DD's Head of Year is adamant she is wasting her time.

My DD doesn't have her heart set on Cambridge and we know that the odds are against her getting in. But she'd like to at least have a try.

I don't want to keep encouraging her if it's completely unrealistic but I don't want to discourage her if actually, she has some chance.

If anyone has any advice, experience or insider knowledge, I'd be most grateful.

The truth is there is no magic formula - when you talk to people who got in who didn't they're such a mixed bag- some never dropped a grade but it was a no... others were accepted because the person at C saw a spark of something they liked .. I would say go for it - nothing to lose but the experience and at least no what ifs.. v annoying that any young person would be discouraged from giving it a shot

She will learn so much from doing the extra courses and the application itself that she should definitely apply. Good luck and if you post here with more details on subject you might well find someone who can give her more directed advice. She may well not get in but if she doesn’t try she certainly won’t get in.

I’d say go for it-but she will need to get a wriggle on with applying-DD submitted last night to UCAS-she has been writing and rewriting her personal statement since the beginning of this academic year with lots of support from the Aspire tutor at her 6th form. Will your DDs school offer that support?

Good luck to her though-it’s only one spot of 5 on the form so it doesn’t matter if she doesn’t get in. Just showing she has a shot at it is great!

My DH went to Oxford back in the day - ‘80s - when a lot fewer went to university. Not only did his school say he shouldn’t apply, they said he wasn’t university material at all - any university.

My only word of caution is - is she so focused on the cam application that she might not read the other unis courses properly? Will her 2-3 choice be thought through or rushed? It would be a shame to rush to do the cam application and regret her other choices due to speed. Has she visited other unis yet? She might fall in love with them and even prefer them.

Cam is a magical place but some of the courses are quite old fashioned. Does she actually want to do the curriculum for her chosen degree there?

Please do go along with this as far as you can. If Cambridge want to talk to your DD let her go along and find out more. Be guided by them, they obviously know what they want better than anyone who is reading a website or even if they went to Cambridge 3 years ago. It keeps changing.
Even if she doesn't go to Cambridge she will have learned a lot more by going to the visits and meeting people. It will open her eyes (and perhaps yours) to a world you probably know little of.
Go to everything she can and be herself when there. They can see past accents and class behaviour. They have been doing it for a while.

DC’s friend got in to do English with an AAB.

And don’t fret massively over the personal statement, either.

They care about grades, academic achievement and potential, passion for the subject and depth of interest in the subject. The PS is only used to help the interviewer start the conversation. They are not interested in extra curricular hobbies not related to the course. We were told this by a succession of admissions tutors / admissions talks on open days.

If she is up for giving it a go, and her overall confidence not deterred by a knock back, why not go for it?

What’s wrong with applying anyway? I don’t understand why schools would discourage people.It’s not like she’s going to lose anything.

I’ve always been the sort to put in my applications for things anyway and LP and behold actually gotten stuff other people said was impossible.

There's no harm in attending the workshop. I'm assuming she's not applying for STEM. What is the standard offer for the course she's applying for?

Has she got a Cambridge style PS prepared, with lots of emphasis on supra curricular activities rather than music, sport & DofE (unless she's applying for music). The deadline is 15 October and her school must be on the ball to do what's required at their end.

@Newgirls It's not true that Cambridge courses are old fashioned. They usually have a great deal of room for self direction, and cover content at a very fast pace.

Of course she should go for it. Even if nothing comes from it, all the help and coaching that's being offered will be useful for other interviews and throughout life.

What have the university said about her GCSE grades?

She should apply anyway. She has nothing at all to lose. Especially as Cambridge is keen she apply. She has four other choices if she doesn't get in.
Don't rely on the school for her extra curricular tuition/knowledge.Make sure she knows about free online courses from Harvard, Coursera etc in her field, that she regularly checks out podcasts, lectures in person and online, books outside of the curriculum, documentaries etc. And most important of all, processes what she learns from them and draws her own conclusions. That's what they want - independent critical thinking applied to source material. Not always taught in school. The more practise she gets at that, the better.

My son went through the Cambridge outreach program, the difference being his GCSEs were 999998887 and his predicted A level grades were A A A A.

He was interviewed by Cambridge after sitting their maths entrance exam but did not receive an offer but did have offers from the other 4 universities on his UCAS application.

Cambridge is a long shot at the best of times. It is massively oversubscribed and yes they reject students who are predicted 3 x A*s simply because they have hundreds of them applying for courses.

Yes they take into account contextual but they are looking for up to 3 in the criteria. www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/applying/contextual-data GCSE wise there is published data about the average number of GCSEs equivalent to an A (9s or 8s) and As (7) then anything below that is classed as "other". The lowest average number of A equivalent for any course is 6 mostly 8 though. Page 4 of this document for source www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/653923/response/1553410/attach/3/FOI%202020%20241%20Elliott%20data.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1

Ds had 2 interviews in the same day with Cambridge with 2 lecturers/professors in each.

There is a reason they only allow either Cambridge or Oxford on the UCAS form is because statistically they are harder to get into just by sheer number of applicants and high achieving ones at that. This year has seen students offered £10k to defer until 2022 in several universities with a guarantee of first choice colleges or accommodation etc due to oversubscribed courses and students achieving their predicted grades. 2022 is going to be a difficult admissions round anyway.

I would say good luck to her and if it is what she wants I hope she gets in.

They won’t comment in individuals . They will just say to apply as a blanket policy.

I do think the GCSE results are low for Cambridge based on who I know that went there, but you never know!

I do think the DD is wrong saying thousands with all 9 grades are rejected m. They are not. Until COVID influenced grades, there were fewer than 1000 DC who got 100 % grade 9s. COVID increased the grades so the DD will up against far more with far better GCSEs. We don’t have the stats to say how many of these DC will get in yet. This will make entrance tougher though because so many more have top grades at both gcse and A level so Cambridge will undoubtedly have to be choosy. Therefore entrance tests have an enhanced importance and other ways of differentiating between students for interview . It is likely to be tough.

Those are of course not great GCSE results and will be very much at the lower range achieved by applicants,but why did the school change its mind on her suitability for Oxbridge,they told her she was suitable after she had been given/awarded her GCSE results and her projected A levels show a significant improvement,so why have they changed their mind?

I would say ignore the school and go for it. Even if the school are right, well, it's her times she's wasting.
Best of luck! If she doesn't get into Cambridge, try Harvard, why not!

I think people saying 'it's just one place on the form' probably don't know it's quite a lot more trouble to apply to Cambridge. You have to submit your form soon, two months early, and will be expected to have an amazing personal statement, lots of extra-curricular or relevant skills and interests (e.g. essay writing if you are going for English), as well as great grades. Submitting written work is common, as is a pre-test interview/assessment, some subjects have an exam.

In my daughter's subject she's applying for, just less than 1 in 10 get in.

So 90% don't get in.

Of course she can try, realistically sorry but I don't think her grades are good enough (even predicted A level). I am not a Cambridge admissions person though and so if she's happy with the extra work and happy to take a chance, as everyone is who applies knowing the chances are against them, she could try. Alternatively she could do her A levels, get better than her predicted grades, do a relevant year out to her subject and apply then.

Oxford put more weight on GCSEs than Cambridge.

I would let her apply, she may get in she may not, but she will never know if she doesn't apply and she will end up with a lifetime niggle in the back of her mind of 'What if....'

I say absolutely apply to Cambridge. Those gcse grades were centre awarded -she never got the chance to sit an exam. So much relied on the school's opinion. Some of the slightly snobby comments above are from parents of private school children who didn't get far despite lots of 8s and 9s. But that isn't relevant to your daughter's chances of success.

My son attended a (not particularly high performing) state school that sends zero, 1 or 2 students to oxbridge each year. His GCSEs were 9 9 9 9 9 8 8 7 7 B 6 3. He got a Cambridge offer for law - standard offer is A* A A.

I think what OP needs to be careful of is that everyone had CAGs for their GCSEs - and they were a lot higher in general. Unless her dd has something spectacular under her belt or massive mitigation somewhere, she's just not going to make the initial cut. Plus today we know how grade boundaries will be set next year.

[quote Innocenta]@Newgirls It's not true that Cambridge courses are old fashioned. They usually have a great deal of room for self direction, and cover content at a very fast pace. [/quote]
I disagree. They don’t offer thinks like neuroscience and international relations. The English degree is very male and stale. Music is very traditional with very little space for contemporary and commercial.

I know so many people who went because it’s Cam but the degree itself wasn’t itself very useful. Student room is full of such stories.

It depends on the course and the lecturers and students need to really read what they will be studying.

Admittedly 30 years ago but my GCSE grades were AAAAABCC. No A* in those days and not sure I would have got one anyway!

Lots of my peers who went to private schools had 12 or 13 A grade GCSEs. My very ordinary comp only offered 8. Didn't stop me getting a place.

@DellaPortero
My daughter is not at private school, she's at state school, has a contextual/disadvantaged background as well as a personal reason that might have impacted on her grades. We are still realistic about her chances.

Your child's grades were significantly above that of the OP, plus all grades are centred assessed this year. 40% of students got A or A* for A levels, they aren't all Oxbridge material, and even if they were, there's not the capacity to take them.

As I say, if your dd is realistic about the extra work/additional exams and assessment and is likely to shine at that stage, encourage her to have a go but with the knowledge that even the best students know its a lottery.

I'm not familiar with the UK uni system, but even by applying and going through the interview process she is gaining experiences and developing her skills.

If she's happy to try and not be utterly heartbroken if it doesn't work - then what's to lose?