DD being discouraged from Cambridge by school

[quittingteacher]

Hi all,

I wondered if anyone had any experience and could help guide us. My DD is predicted A*AA and we were contacted at the beginning of Y12 by her school who identified her as a potential Oxbridge candidate.

We signed up for the relevant Cambridge Spring access courses and outreach courses (we qualify as disadvantaged due to our postcode). At all of the Cambridge webinars attended, they made a point of saying that it's a myth that you need all 8s and 9s at GCSEs and to ignore this advice given by well meaning people.

My DD didn't do fantastically in her GCSEs and has only now in sixth form realised her actual potential.
Her grades were 555666677.

Anyway, now we are in Y13, her school have told her she shouldn't be applying to Oxbridge as her GCSE grades aren't strong enough. I'm really annoyed as it was the school who encouraged us to think about Oxbridge last year.

My DD has since been invited by the outreach team at Cambridge to an interview prep webinar that is specifically for those who would usually count as eligible for contextual offers elsewhere. But DD's Head of Year is adamant she is wasting her time.

My DD doesn't have her heart set on Cambridge and we know that the odds are against her getting in. But she'd like to at least have a try.

I don't want to keep encouraging her if it's completely unrealistic but I don't want to discourage her if actually, she has some chance.

If anyone has any advice, experience or insider knowledge, I'd be most grateful.

Those are bizarre grades from the school for someone they’d identified as a high flyer. What was the process?
If she’s not going to be devastated I’d encourage her to stay in the scheme. She’ll gain such a lot.

Put down the college with the fewest applicants and have a go.
Or wait a year and apply with the actual A level results, then they won’t have to take the prediction on trust.

If she is in touch with the outreach people, they are the best source of guidance?

[quote quittingteacher]@WishingYouAMerryChristmasToo

Nobody predicted she would achieve highly at GCSE. They were her predicted grades and she didn't sit her GCSEs because of Covid.

She has now been predicted much higher grades because she is working extremely hard and doing really well in the school's internal exams. [/quote]
But her grades produced because of Covid are her results - same as everyone else and based on the actual data from the school. Mine needed to do three locked assessment in each subject under exam conditions. All the students have the same format for assessments at gcse from Covid assessments carried out in schools etc a level 5 is not a level 9. Universities will not discourage anyone from applying - more applicants, bigger pool etc
I used to work in my old college in admissions - we would not consider someone with those results without absolutely exceptional circumstances (Covid is not one). We deal with straight 9 applications, we considers applications with 7:8/9 even for medicine but not 5/6 - it’s just a reality check. If you really think that she will knock it out the park on exam day 2022 then - take a year out and apply when you have the a levels in the bag

Have a go?

Difficult though as to go for it you have to get behind the idea of it fully, with attendant massive disappointment if you don't get in (which after all is likely - many many talented kids don't!)

If she doesn't get in, but still likes the idea of it, she can work like hell for A levels then try again post A level (or for Oxford?)

Thats what I did and was successful second time around.

I was advised not to apply by my school back in the 90s. I was a bright but bored student who didn’t engage and underperformed at GCSE. My predicted A-levels were not great (they refused to amend these also), but I knew I had the capability. They wouldn’t budge and in the end I decided to apply to Uni after I had got my results - much less stress! I got through my a-levels, got AAB (still didn’t really try hard enough!) and went to a (much loved on MN) Russell Group uni. I came top of my degree course there and in the end went to Cambridge for a Masters degree. Once schools have an opinion of you it’s very hard to change their minds, but you don’t have to work by their timetable, especially if you’re thinking of a gap year anyway.

@quittingteacher She has to be realistic: most Cambridge colleges are so heavily over-subscribed that they can use a number of methods to reduce the applications. It's a similar process when undergrads are applying for medicine/veterinary courses.

If she's willing to accept being rejected, it's definitely worth her applying. We had a similar issue with our DD, although she decided against it in the end. All good wishes.

@FiveGensOfLove

My headteacher, at a bog standard state comp, asked me why I was applying to Cambridge and not Local University A or B. He seemed mystified. I got in and moved faaaaar away. Ignore the school. The interview counts for a lot, as does their assessment of your potential, rather than what you’ve already achieved.

Yes, same here, some teachers at my school thought I was very odd/ a bit 'above myself' for wanting to apply to Cambridge.

In the end 5 of us in my year applied, 2 got offers - me and the Head Girl) and I was the only one who got a place. I was also the new girl (I went to a very low achieving school up to 16) which didn't go down well.

I hoped to get in but I really wanted the experience of applying too even if I wasn't successful. I think she should go for it... nothing ventured etc!

If she doesn't apply she defo won't get in. She's nothing to lose.

She sounds realistic and grounded and also high achieving now.
I would support her and I would also tell School to get on board or shut up.
She has other choices too. She will doubtless do very well.

One of the biggest problem oxbridge faces is idiot teachers who actively try to stop their students applying. “It’s not for the likes of us”, “you’ll never get in”.

Go for it and tell the head of year to wind their neck in. If the outreach team thinks it’s possible, then she won’t get it if she doesn’t try.

One-hundredth-ing all the people who said go for it. She has nothing to lose by trying and you seem to be getting support from the uni too.

I assume DD is at a state school? It’s not unknown for them to try and put pupils off Oxbridge so I wouldn’t give it undue weight.

We’d try and have a back up plan either way.

Hope it goes well!

@KleineDracheKokosnuss

One of the biggest problem oxbridge faces is idiot teachers who actively try to stop their students applying. “It’s not for the likes of us”, “you’ll never get in”.

Go for it and tell the head of year to wind their neck in. If the outreach team thinks it’s possible, then she won’t get it if she doesn’t try.

^ This, yes, exactly. They may feel they are protecting them from disappointment but tbh it’s better to try and risk disappointment imho

I'm a teacher with a DD who graduated with a Masters last summer from C and I think she should go for it.

DD's head of 6th form has form for talking bollocks. He said to me over lunch: "people who study Natural Sciences are just students who can't make up their minds". What total crap! DD ended up studying Materials Science in years 3 & 4 and is now starting a PhD in that discipline. She had never studied it prior to going to C so how could she know that she liked it and was good at it? Heads of 6th form don't know everything.

DD2 also applied to C, was interviewed but did not get an offer. She's enrolled on a similar course elsewhere and is happy and doing well. Her head of year tried to kibosh her application until I got arsey with the Head. This teacher neglected to teach her part of Maths A level, something she realised the afternoon before one exam, sought out a different teacher for guidance and then 15 marks of questions were in the paper.

They don't know it all. Grades from 2020 were completely messed up due to the algorithm then the government climb-down. Your DD has literally one space on her UCAS form to lose by applying. Cambridge is really really keen on state school students applying, particularly from those which don't often send students there. Good luck

She should go for it, understanding that the whole thing is a crap shoot so she shouldn't set her heart on it (my standard advice to all aspiring oxbridge candidates).

Listening too much to people who tell you what you can't do is poison for the soul. Try, and if it doesn't work out, fuck it. It's not the be all and end all but she won't go through life wondering what if she hadn't listened to someone who told her she had no hope.

Your daughter needs you to show faith in her so she has faith in herself. Yes, it might not be strictly rational, but for sometime who has blossomed late, it's a good idea that you encourage her (without doing that "of course you'll get in" shit that people do). More,"i think it's worth a go, if you'd like to try".

There is much pressure on Oxbridge etc to increase intake for certain criteria. Hence they are put the work in to attract pupils like your FD that think has what it takes.

Go for it, nothing ventured nothing gained!

@SometimesRavenSometimesParrot Are you at Cambridge? Do they publish the rate of GCSE 8/9 versus number of offers eventually made? Because Oxford do, and it is really very few, in the subjects I know about. Granted it is not none, but it is so few that your chances of getting an offer are seriously lower with no top grades at all.

My kids (all from 'flagged' state secondary) have attended numerous Oxbridge outreach events, in fact the youngest recently completed a longish virtual course with Cambridge. Not convinced there was ever much of a reality check regarding attendees exam track records.

As a previous poster said, it's very difficult to do an oxbridge application without getting sucked in - choosing a college, entrance exams, external reading, interviews,...by the time they take place, it's easy to feel like you've already got a foot in the door. It can then be a brutal shock to have it slammed in your face a month later.

I could be facing this come January, as youngest is thoroughly invested in the idea, although she wasn't at the start. Now she is going to be truly heartbroken if she doesn't get in. It's not an easy decision to go ahead and try. No matter how resilient your child might seem, it definitely hurts them to be rejected when that letter actually arrives.

I think your DD should go for it. She has nothing to lose. She has four other choices on her UCAS application. No candidate is a shoe-in, but only candidates who apply are ever offered places.
Most kids who apply don’t get offers and that’s okay. I think it is an interesting experience to have a try at it.
We almost never thinking about our failures but regret at not taking a chance can eat away at you got a long time.

I think your daughter should consider whether she might also be interested in the foundation year -

www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/courses/foundation-year

I have no idea if her school would qualify, but worth a look!

Couple of quick questions OP:

• is it a state or private school?
• is it a subject where Cam operate a pre-interview admissions test (eg ELAT, etc.?)

@PhiRhoSigma as I’ve said that’s not my institution but I do take issue with you implying all outreach people just wildly encourage without a reality check because we don’t care.

I hope your DC has a successful year.

I agree with the majority who say just go for it. She might not get an offer of course, but she definitely won't if she doesn't apply. She will have four other choices too, so can afford to be more realistic with those.

One option might be to plan on taking a year off and then make a decision based on her A results. If she gets A*AA as predicted, she should definitely apply.

I got into Cambridge, despite having GCSEs not dissimilar to those I think - this was 20 years ago now and I don’t know how the numbers compare to the old letters.

Anyway, I didn’t have straight As at GCSE or A level. Just enough of them. The interview counts for a huge amount - they want to see if a candidate can think.

If she doesn’t feel any pressure or expectation, she should do an open application (if they still do those), rather than to a specific college. Higher chance of getting in that way.

The school have told her not to apply but I think they would support her with W good reference if she did.

The school can’t tell her not to apply. She can apply anywhere she likes. Even if it is a waste of her time, (and I have no idea if it is) it is her time to waste. What’s that saying about shooting for the stars, aiming for the moon? The worst that can happen is she doesn’t get a place that she isn’t setting her heart on. Never, ever, let anyone clip your daughter’s wings.

Listen to the university and not the school. My school told me I wouldn't get in; I was too quiet and would fail the interview. Got in and never regretted it.

My GCSE results were better admittedly but it's up to the university and they are seeking to widen access and diversify their student population. Many good candidates don't get in but they really do take the time to make sure they take in people who will thrive in their system. If it turns out that it's not a good fit then she'll do well somewhere else. Applying will be good experience, especially if the university itself is not discouraging it. Nothing ventured nothing gained.

As a secondary school teacher who has lead several trips to Cambridge, I definitely got the impression that “you don’t need all 8s and 9s” means “it’s okay if only some of your grades are 8/9” rather than “you don’t need any at all.”

That said, there’s no harm in using one of her UCAS choices on Cambridge. Just make sure she includes a range of realistic options for her other 4.