Universities deciding whether to continue online this year (updates?)

[dreamingbohemian]

I've been on a few threads this year about whether universities will fully return to face to face learning this year or stay partly online.

My university told staff today that actually all teaching will be back to normal this year. Previously we had thought to keep large lectures online but now they have ditched that to go fully back to normal.

(Apologies for not outing myself by saying which university but it's a large London uni)

Just thought it might be helpful for people/parents to know that these decisions are getting firmed up now, so contact your university if you haven't heard anything yet -- and also just some optimism that maybe universities will be more f2f than expected this year.

And I find the arguments blinkered, deaf to any criticism and depressingly lacking empathy to young students.
My opinion. As valid as anyone else's.

Yes, you're allowed your opinion. In your opinion that I should go on Love Island, which was based on some things other people, not me, had said, you had misunderstood the facts and made an assertion based on a misreading, and you were actually.... quite rude! So I'd say it is less valid than the opinion of someone who's informed on the facts, to be fair.

But I'm sure your other opinions are formed based on much more careful research.

@TheMerrickBoy to be fair no. But you did say thanks for the heads up. Which kind of implies you agree with them.
Sorry though, as you do seem very nice and trying to make things work.
I'm off. Makes me too angry to know that the kids I've worked so hard to teach and ensure they can go to Uni are going to be destined for another year of learning in their pokey bedrooms. My students are predominantly PP and can't work at home as share bedrooms but have dreamed of Uni for years. Their experiences last year were awful. Some have no wifi at home and were still denied the right to live in the accommodation they were paying for.
All these on line lectures stuff is great if you're middle class snd can afford all the right kit. But shit if you're poor.

An opinion is not as valid as anyone else's if it ignores clearly stated facts

Universities are not allowed to ban students from f2f if they haven't been vaccinated. There is literally no legal way to do this right now.

So an opinion that universities should ban unvaccinated students is just wrong. It's not something that universities can do.

[quote mumsneedwine]@TheMerrickBoy to be fair no. But you did say thanks for the heads up. Which kind of implies you agree with them.
Sorry though, as you do seem very nice and trying to make things work.
I'm off. Makes me too angry to know that the kids I've worked so hard to teach and ensure they can go to Uni are going to be destined for another year of learning in their pokey bedrooms. My students are predominantly PP and can't work at home as share bedrooms but have dreamed of Uni for years. Their experiences last year were awful. Some have no wifi at home and were still denied the right to live in the accommodation they were paying for.
All these on line lectures stuff is great if you're middle class snd can afford all the right kit. But shit if you're poor.[/quote]
@TheMerrickBoy to be fair no. But you did say thanks for the heads up. Which kind of implies you agree with them

Once again, incorrect. Read back.

Last 2 lines were you ?

ShortBacknSides
You also need to understand how quickly things changed for universities and how the government moved the goalposts st the last minute.... last years A level fiasco had huge implications.

@SkinnyMirror the poster you're answering is a broken record on this topic. There is no point in reasoning with her. Don't waste your time.

She hasn't listened to reasoned, patient, detailed explanations from many academic MNers on this & other threads and still isn't listening.
Thanks for the heads up 👍🏻
I'm beginning to see it's a fruitless task!

No, they weren't. Where are you getting that from?

Whoever it was. Yup, hopeless task. I will fight for my students right to a proper education.

This isn't doing your cause a lot of good, you know.

@mumsneedwine

Whoever it was. Yup, hopeless task. I will fight for my students right to a proper education.

I can quite easily see who it was, I'm not sure why you're struggling?

@TheMerrickBoy huge big sorry. Was another person. I am really sorry as you have been unfailingly honest and upfront.
If I ever saw you in person I'd buy you a pint to apologise.

Thank you, I appreciate you checking and saying so.

@TheMerrickBoy because I'm knackered. I've spent the last 2 days trying to sort out the mess of some schools over inflating grades on our students. Some being told they have to defer as no spaces. But they can't afford to ! Parents will get no money for them and they can't get jobs earning enough. They need the loans.
Worse is the A star A star B student rejected from medicine because didn't get AAA. They are in now but its been a fight.
I'm really off now as have round 2 tomorrow. But hey, Gav says the results are all my fault as I didn't teach my students on zoom on their non existent computer that his government promised but never provided.
Night.

DS is at art school, and last year (his first) was all online and projects via Teams, but without access to the technology that the industry uses, and the university owns. Hoping to have f2f this year as the next two years are all about practical work. But he got lucky and has had real life paid work on location all summer.

I'm off. Makes me too angry to know that the kids I've worked so hard to teach and ensure they can go to Uni are going to be destined for another year of learning in their pokey bedrooms. My students are predominantly PP and can't work at home as share bedrooms but have dreamed of Uni for years. Their experiences last year were awful. Some have no wifi at home and were still denied the right to live in the accommodation they were paying for.
All these on line lectures stuff is great if you're middle class snd can afford all the right kit. But shit if you're poor.

All UG course at my uni are back on campus.
My DH works at a large university and they have made it clear that they are a physical university and want all students back in September.

Lots of other academics have explained that there will be a fair amount of on campus teaching from September.

I'm not sure how this translates as all your students studying in pokey bedrooms?

What many of us have said is that there may be some online teaching but that is a good thing and has the potential to enhance the student experience. This is based on pedagogical research not a bunch of academics wanting to carry on working from home. However, you refuse to acknowledge that some online teaching and learning is a good thing. You're determined to see the worst. It's a shame as people have tried to engage with you.

DS has had the kit because he worked in hospitality for two and a half years before applying for university and so earned enough to buy the essential basics. But he was almost 21 before deciding on a course, and is now 22. His work experience before starting university, although low level and low paid with awful hours, has persuaded the people who employed him that he can get up, turn up and work in a team under pressure to deliver. He was a baby chef in a top hotel, and has the varicose veins to prove it. I really think that 18 year olds are mostly too immature to get the real value from tertiary education. You need to see what unskilled or semi-skilled work looks like to know why you want to escape it.

Mumsneedwine I completely see your points - I hope you’ve been listened to

Hope it all works out for your own students. I have heard so many awful stories from the past year of young student experiences and hope it is vastly better for them this year - and that they aren’t all considered germ laden nuisances!

Like most people in the 1970s I went straight to university, as a very young 18 year old. But did I really benefit from the study? Probably not as much as I could. I wanted to escape home and my rural environment for the bright lights and a big city. I think it would be better for most humanities courses (not STEM) to insist on a break between school and university. It seems to me that success on most STEM courses seems to depend on not taking prolonged breaks from studying.

It has also been reported that Birmingham senior management repeatedly told their staff not to follow government guidance on Covid safety and required lecturers who had been in close contact with students who tested positive to continue with in-person teaching

From the University of Birmingham this does not surprise me in the least. I left working at that university (and was on track for a very senior academic role) because if I’d stayed my physical and mental health would have been extremely bad. I was on track for a heart attack. And from friends still there, things have not changed.

I really think that 18 year olds are mostly too immature to get the real value from tertiary education. You need to see what unskilled or semi-skilled work looks like to know why you want to escape it.

@XingMing if I ruled the world (cue Harry Secombe), I’d require all students to have at least one year working between school and university, especially kids from fee-paying schools. They could do a version of National service, but not military. There’s loads they could do.

And then it is would help them sort out whether they REALLY wanted to go to university, or if they were just doing it because that’s “what one does”.

I don't think DS could have taken a year out after school before starting his (science) degree course. His offer specified A* in Further Maths and he needed to be at that level to access the course effectively. He had no teaching or input from school after March 2020, so he worked independently for 6 months to keep his Maths at that level before starting his course. Having to do that for a further 12 months with no support would have been a bit much.

He is very motivated though. In term time he gets up in time to start watching his lectures from 8am, six days a week (I know this because he had to do a term from home).

@Ironoaks, the example you give is exactly the sort of situation I had in mind. DS's maths teacher said that scientific brains need to keep going to maintain their edge.

@ShortBacknSides, gap years remain popular with about 40% of independent school leavers and with a significant number of leavers at our local sixth form college. Applying with grades in hand is becoming increasingly common for some subjects and there are indeed loads of things to do on a gap year. My DC's friends have worked for major companies, joined engineering projects overseas, learned additional languages, volunteered in hospitals, stocked shelves in supermarkets etc etc.
For my DC, I don't think their university education would have benefitted from a year out prior to starting their degrees. As @Ironoaks says, it isn't encouraged for STEM/Maths degrees because it is difficult to stay at the level required for success at university.

Dd's timetable shows online lectures so far for Semester 1 at Edinburgh.

I am not a huge fan of gap years after 18 as you can get out of the habit of studying and be lost to high paid work for life if you aren't careful.However I know lots of 18 year olds love a gap year so is up to the individual person. I also wanted to get on with advancing my career and did not want to waste a year before I started earning money as a lawyer (which a gap year would have meant for me).

On this coming term I think my twins' place (post grad) will be collating the results of a survey on which days you want to attend (which is probably separate from covid issues) and they will base options (eg 4 half days a week or 2 full days a week) based on demand. Mine want 21 full days a week which I think is about 9 to 5pm - quite long days in person). We will be disappointed if those supposedly in person days are at a screen like their 100% on screen only course this year where they did not meet a single other person on the course ever!