Universities deciding whether to continue online this year (updates?)

[dreamingbohemian]

I've been on a few threads this year about whether universities will fully return to face to face learning this year or stay partly online.

My university told staff today that actually all teaching will be back to normal this year. Previously we had thought to keep large lectures online but now they have ditched that to go fully back to normal.

(Apologies for not outing myself by saying which university but it's a large London uni)

Just thought it might be helpful for people/parents to know that these decisions are getting firmed up now, so contact your university if you haven't heard anything yet -- and also just some optimism that maybe universities will be more f2f than expected this year.

Normal is what we all want and the students want a chance to learn with a human in front of them. Snd humans around them. If they don't go that's their loss.

For those taking vocational courses like medicine and vet medicine perhaps.

However something like maths can benefit from being on line. A friends who studied maths at Cambridge then law said law was a huge relief as she could finally understand the whole of a lecture. DS used to spend at least a couple of hours before a lecture going through the content so he was familiar with the material and had a fighting chance of keeping up, and then four or so hours after, making sure he did understand. DD, on line, had it easier. She could take the lecture in 15 minute chunks setting aside the whole day to make sure she had taken it all on board. Easier in a home environment.

The normal has changed. It was changing anyway. What we retain and what we change needs to be considered. There is real potential to improve lives and learning/research of both students and staff.

@mumsneedwine

But there is now no need for socially distanced learning as it can go back to normal. Normal is what we all want and the students want a chance to learn with a human in front of them. Snd humans around them. If they don't go that's their loss. Attendance is v easy to monitor as they sign in or swipe their student card on a reader (v cheap as we bought them for 6th form). If it's going to be on line lectures then Unis are going to need less staff - only need to record once and can use for years.

Yes, we all want normal!

You're quite correct that we can, and indeed do, monitor attendance. And we have, and use, the technology to do that. What we can't do is institute any repercussions for students whose attendance is low.

That's completely untrue about recording once and using forever - recorded lectures will reference, for example, current events, or discussions that have happened in previous weeks. We change the reading lists and course content, as well. But I don't think it's going to be online lectures forever, and it's already not everywhere, either.

@Newgirls

Well of course but then work at home on research days and at work on teaching days

It does sound like for some students are an inconvenience!

Well yes, that's sort of what we do - though not usually 'research days', as you don't generally have time to research during term time. It'd be more like admin, marking, writing lectures, and so on, and some of that has always been possible to do at home, which is nice, and seeing students is also nice. I don't think many people think that students are an inconvenience.

@Peaseblossum22 agree 100%. If you promise a service then deliver it. If teaching students is an inconvenience then get another job (been told as a teacher my not wanting to catch COVID in January meant I should resign & I love teaching).
And students couldn't turn their cameras on in some cases as the wifi couldn't cope. So if wanted to hear anything they had to limit their visual. Now they can all be in a room together so no need to worry about dodgy wifi. One Uni said all scans will now be on line and open book for some courses - that was before the on line system crashed on the first day of exams causing total chaos.
Unis should insist on vaccines and masks in crowded places. Daily testing if want. But they should provide the education they promised and are being paid to provide. Otherwise they are an expensive version of OU.

That is no different from many professions. DH (not an academic) has been holed up in the spare bedroom for 18 months, and apart from a "Team Picnic" last summer has not seen any of his colleagues. Younger colleagues were allowed back in to the office first because it was agreed that they took priority when numbers were reduced because of social distancing. He is looking forward to the return in October, but is very happy that they are only looking for 2/3 days. The non commuting days will be useful for producing longer pieces of work.

I assume that for academics something similar will also be most productive. Indeed for students, especially those that are less well off, mature students, those with disabilities, or from cultures that discourage living away from home, as it will expand the range of options available and reduce costs.

This is how many academics worked anyway pre-pandemic.
Around 50% of my course is online and I have one course that is completely online ( this actually gets the most applications) and we do this because it suits our cohort of students but that doesn't work for every course.
Online can work exceptionally well but it takes a lot of work.

I don't think many people think that students are an inconvenience.

Thankfully the type of academics that think this are becoming more rare.

Although I am pretty pissed off with my students at the moment as they seem to have forgotten their manners, have become quite rude and have kicked off because I've dared to take some annual leave but that doesn't mean I think they're an inconvenience!

I have not had any holiday since summer 2019 not even one night away never mind time off work but I don't get paid when I take holiday so I suppose that's the difference.

Students want certainty so if they could be given a legally binding commitment to X numbers of fully face to face in person a week come what may that would be useful and that even if gov guidance is against that but the law allows the attendance then they can attend. I still don't know what my sons will be doing in September on their course -100% on line, 100% face to face or whatever as they just had to complete a "survey" to express preferences (yet we have fully paid).

In all jobs you are going to find that sometimes the group of people you deal with most can be hard work - and you're probably going to have some insight into their worst behaviour that people not in that job don't have!

When you work in a pub, you know what annoying things customers do. If you're a GP, you're going to be aware of some of the most entitled, difficult, or unpleasant traits that patients display. Swap in teacher, counsellor, cashier, whatever. Jobs mean you see certain groups at their worst and their best.

I have some brilliant discussions with students, I meet students who are lovely, interesting, delightful people, and there are moments of real privilege to know I've helped, interested, or inspired them in any way.

I also see irritating or rude behaviour from some of them, and that's all part of the job too, just not a part I enjoy.

@Xenia

I have not had any holiday since summer 2019 not even one night away never mind time off work but I don't get paid when I take holiday so I suppose that's the difference.

Students want certainty so if they could be given a legally binding commitment to X numbers of fully face to face in person a week come what may that would be useful and that even if gov guidance is against that but the law allows the attendance then they can attend. I still don't know what my sons will be doing in September on their course -100% on line, 100% face to face or whatever as they just had to complete a "survey" to express preferences (yet we have fully paid).

I'm sure there would be some students for whom such a contract would be welcome, but honestly there are a lot who, understandably, would not want fully face to face teaching in a (hypothetical and, I hope, really unlikely!) situation where things had deteriorated to the extent that government guidance was that it shouldn't happen.

I have not had any holiday since summer 2019 not even one night away never mind time off work but I don't get paid when I take holiday so I suppose that's the difference.

Well that's your choice. I have an allocated number of days leave and have been told to take it because I've barely taken anything since xmas 2019. I'm entitled to this leave and I informed my students weeks ago when i'd be off so it shouldn't have come as a surprise! I have a 6 year old who deserves some time with his mum.

I love my job and usually love my students but they've been very challenging this last couple of months. I'm putting it down to stress and giving them lots of leeway.

Post-92 Uni here. We’ll be entirely f2f. Our bosses have been desperate for us to be on campus since the start of the pandemic and would probably have stayed f2f throughout had we nit been mandated to stay at home.

Interestingly Warwick sent out an email yesterday stating lectures will be online... Which I think is disgusting, waiting till results day... My dd is lucky going into yr2 and has secured friendships and she does have labs too. Feel for the 1st years.

I contacted my uni the other day to ask how the campus setup was regarding social distancing, covid signage etc and how things were likely to play out (I'm waiting an Autism assessment and I really struggled last year) - wall of silence. Says a lot really - they just want us registered for next year at all costs.

I think what I will do is to strongly advise my students not to attend, turn up in a respirator which I will not take off, and play my recorded videos on the projector. There are three reasons: the community, the students, myself

Well they will be vaccinated, despite your claims that they won't be. My son has had his second jab brought forward and will have had it three weeks before he goes to uni.

Presumably you've been vaccinated.

I can't see the problem with asking students to wear masks in crowded areas to help protect those for whom the vaccine may not work very effectively. But not to do away with all lectures altogether. I suspect a lot of this actually has more to do with capacity, and less to do with covid.

DS has finally started to get information through from University (Manchester), he had a confirmed place as he had taken a gap year (should have gone 2020), but had been unsure about what he wanted to do until after the 2020 A levels fiasco.

2nd email he got yesterday was asking for his preference for either f2f or remote provision. Surely this should already be decided? (he went for f2f)

My exh was told in no uncertain terms that teaching is in person and they would be expected to be on campus at least 4 days a week, even on non teaching days, this has thoroughly annoyed him and other senior staff who have been working remotely for 18 months from their holiday homes!

@gogohm

My exh was told in no uncertain terms that teaching is in person and they would be expected to be on campus at least 4 days a week, even on non teaching days, this has thoroughly annoyed him and other senior staff who have been working remotely for 18 months from their holiday homes!

This doesn't surprise me! I used to be responsible for organising Clearing for a university and I can't tell you how many arguments I had with academics who were refusing to come on to campus and wanted us to redirect call to their holiday home in France!

AnotherRGacadrnic

School teachers have been expected to work face to face for much of the academic year.

I'm primary so I have no social distancing, no masks and as it's an old building poor ventilation. I'm CV and had no choice but to go in face to face from last September. Covid was rife in our area including amongst children and parents.I did catch Covid. I did end up in hospital and taking time to recover. But once well I was expected back doing the exact same thing again. The MSM didn't care that school teachers were in these situations. Surely no one ever believed children didn't get and transmit Covid?!

Whilst it's much harder for vulnerable staff, if we are now in a society where things are pretty much back to normal, as they currently are in England, then it isn't unreasonable to expect universities to be running as pre Covid normal too - and that means face to face for most of the time.

DD's first year was rubbish re f2f opportunities and yes, it impacts on most students massively. They could do an OU degree if they want it all online for much less money. Dd didn't even get to do placements last year as the university decided they were too risky, along with some other universities (not all) - an essential part of her degree!

At the moment they are saying year 2 will be predominantly f2f in person but we will see!

A friends who studied maths at Cambridge then law said law was a huge relief as she could finally understand the whole of a lecture. DS used to spend at least a couple of hours before a lecture going through the content so he was familiar with the material and had a fighting chance of keeping up, and then four or so hours after, making sure he did understand. DD, on line, had it easier.

But unis have been making recordings of lectures available for some time, even pre-pandemic. It doesn't have to be a replacement for an actual f2f lecture.

The normal has changed. It was changing anyway. What we retain and what we change needs to be considered. There is real potential to improve lives and learning/research of both students and staff.

Are students desperate for more online learning though? It seems the opposite is true for the majority. Some uni staff may well find it suits them, but the students, as a whole, don't seem to agree.

This doesn't surprise me! I used to be responsible for organising Clearing for a university and I can't tell you how many arguments I had with academics who were refusing to come on to campus and wanted us to redirect call to their holiday home in France!

Just out of interest, when you do think academics get to take annual leave, if not in August? We can't take any in term time, nor over Christmas and Easter thanks to marking deadlines, and exam boards go on into mid to late July and resits start in early September. I have to fit my supposed six weeks of annual leave into four weeks in August.

Incidentally, I know one academic who has a holiday home. That's out of hundreds of academics I know. This narrative of lazy overpaid student-hating academics is really tedious.

I don't know any colleagues with holiday homes in France or anywhere else either.

And yes, we get annual leave but unlike a lot of people we can't take it over the course of the year, it has to be when there's no teaching or we can't take it.

Just out of interest, when you do think academics get to take annual leave, if not in August? We can't take any in term time, nor over Christmas and Easter thanks to marking deadlines, and exam boards go on into mid to late July and resits start in early September. I have to fit my supposed six weeks of annual leave into four weeks in August.

I'm an academic who runs a 12 month course - i have students with deadlines this week. I fully understand. However, when i was running Clearing I was asking some academics to be on campus for 2 days - just two days whereas me and my team weren't allowed any annual leave for the last three weeks in August and we had to staff the clearing lines on evenings and weekends because academic staff refused to. They then kicked off at us for offering students places on their courses without consulting them.....we really couldn't win

Incidentally, I know one academic who has a holiday home. That's out of hundreds of academics I know. This narrative of lazy overpaid student-hating academics is really tedious.

I have already said that thankfully these types of academics are becoming increasingly rare - and rightly so. They give the rest of us a bad name.

However, I ran clearing for 12 years and I had the same arguments every year. There were a core group who asked every single time if we could redirect calls to their holiday homes in France. There were course leaders for courses that weren't full and needed to recruit students through clearing. Thankfully most of them have now left the university through targeted 'voluntary' severance.

@Dippyday

Interestingly Warwick sent out an email yesterday stating lectures will be online... Which I think is disgusting, waiting till results day... My dd is lucky going into yr2 and has secured friendships and she does have labs too. Feel for the 1st years.

Warwick emailed all offer holders in May and again in June informing them that lectures will be online. They did not wait until results day and nothing has changed.

Just out of interest, when you do think academics get to take annual leave, if not in August? We can't take any in term time, nor over Christmas and Easter thanks to marking deadlines, and exam boards go on into mid to late July and resits start in early September. I have to fit my supposed six weeks of annual leave into four weeks in August.

For various research & research-income reasons, I'm looking at no annual leave at all even over August at the moment. I'm responsible for generating large amounts of research income in my department, and I'm a bit desperate actually & thinking of going off on sick leave ... totally burnt out. And even August it's not possible to take more than a week in one go - Admissions, Clearing, marking late essays & exams.

igelkott2021 you say all the students will be double vaccinated. This is simply untrue, not only for UK students, many of whom will not have had a chance (even if they desire) to get their second jab by the start date, but the thousands of international students for whom we are still waiting to hear what the policy is. The thought of all the new variants appearing in an unventilated seminar room is seriously worrying.

And, while vaccinations give good protection against hospitalisation and death, they cannot guarantee no infections, so saying they're a panacea against having to spend up to two hours in an airless crowded room with hundreds of young people (and rinse and repeat with a new set of hundreds throughout the day) is simply wrong.