How on Earth do a level lower achievers get to uni with the grades that are being asked?

[NCTDN]

If I wanted to go to uni now, I'd have no chance. In my day, I needed three E grades to get into teaching, from which I've had a fabulous career.
DD is very lucky and looking at places asking for 3As (Not teaching) but I'm so shocked at how high everywhere asks for. I went to what was primarily a teacher training college and even that is asking for 3 alleged at grade b.
So my question is, what do teenagers do these days if they get grades C D or E? It must be so disheartening.

@Piggywaspushed I have a young sister you went to a met as well and hers was the same. I think it’s common for mets but not red bricks.

@Piggywaspushed

I would not shortlist someone for a teaching job with those as their only a levels, and I would not want someone teaching my child with the same poor level of qualifications. Do you have the luxury of choice where you are?

I once shortlisted for a headship and three of the applicants had really bad A Level results. They had made it to headship and deputy headship regardless. But none of them did get the job. Unfortunately, we had five applicants in total.

At my current school we have advertised two English jobs(apparently the whole country is rolling in English teachers). One (young) applicant CDD at A Level. It is all a bit of a sorry state of affairs

We did get someone last year with 3As at A Level and a RG degree! And she is indeed an excellent teacher with good subject knowledge and a positive attitude to (and ability to) learning more

Yes, luckily I've always been in schools where there have been a decent calibre of applicants. Not always straight As at a level and an RG degree, but good enough.

OK, so the new UCAS tariffs came in in 2017 to match the phasing out of AS levels. These now exist in the main in selective schools to allow for 4 subjects to drop to three in year 13. they don't count in league tables any more, or towards the full A Level.

General Studies hasn't really been accepted since about 2016. Most schools don't do it any more. If your DSis is only a bit younger than you you are both pre A Level 'reform'.

A lot of lower ranking unis still accept UCAS points but they are scored differently and ASs pick up negligible points.

I think a lot of schools don't sit any AS levels anymore. More and more want students to pick 3 from the start and study all the way through to A Level with no AS exam at the end of L6 as it won't count anyway.

The only students who might sit the AS are those who aren't being allowed to continue to the full A Level and so are looking to get something out of their year of study or to prove they are able to continue to A Level. I guess weaker candidates might have some AS results amongst perhaps 1 or 2 A Levels that they do complet and boost up their overall UCAS points with an AS or two, even if they aren't worth much.

Pre 2016, our students did 4 subjects in L6 and sat AS exams which counted for half an A Level. Most then dropped down to 3 at A Level but had the 4th AS qualification. This wouldn't be included I then offer for RG Unis but might be for other places and could sometimes tip the balance if a grade was missed on results day.

I remember the years when our L6 sat AS in Jan and June of L6. Anyone not getting an A had to do any modules again and some retook in June of L6, Jan of U6 and June of U6. Most people could squeeze a few extra marks out of re-sits. No wonder grade inflation existed under those circumstances. It was a constant round of revision and playing the system.

We don’t offer AS levels any more. The odd student might end up sitting one but they can’t set out to do them in the first place. I didn’t like the 4-to-3 model much anyway. It encouraged a poor attitude towards the “fourth” subject and teaching a two-year course is more coherent and better organised in my experience.

Yes, people nee dto remember the 2017 change to UCAS points. My son was doing a law job application recently and it wanted UCAS points calculated as at the time you took your exams - my twins were in 2017 under the old system - just - the wording was very particular (probably part of the test of your brains I suppose).... anyway they were under the old system and everyone since then seems to have many fewer UCAS points because it was so completely changed.

My twins did AS and I think it really helped them as they got 4 A grades, the highest you can get which made up for the odd B one got in French or science - subjects they found harder. (Although originally I felt AS was a mistake as you lost the relaxation of lower sixth I had enjoyed as I just did A levels in upper sixth, now I think it was quite useful my 5 children did 4 AS levels).

On the resits points one of my daughters had a school that did not allow resits so you ended up with a bit of a mixed picture - some schools allowing grade improvement and others not.

I work for one of the largest and most successful corporations in the media industry on the business side, and have employed many young people in the past. For what its worth, although I am always interested to see how they have done academically, I am more interested in whether they are able to demonstrate that they are passionate about their careers, committed, team players and willing to learn. These factors are more important to me than which university they may have attended. I do think its important to keep in mind that not every employer, even in the more competitive industries, is fixated on degrees and RG universities.

I think DD's school was one of the last schools that did AS levels in England. She had started with 4 A level subjects, one of them being an untried subject (psychology), which she discovered that she hated. She banked an A in that subject, then dropped it to concentrate on the other three. She took AS levels in 2017, but they were uncoupled so the A levels she took in 2018 covered two years worth of work.

I agree with you @Xenia that sitting AS levels made year 12 feel like year 13, although I think it helped prepare her for A levels.

If you can only manage grade E at A level, a degree isn't the only option, by brother is very bright but didn't do well at sixth form, he initially trained as a plumber via an evening college route, then did additional qualifications and from what I can gather essentially just interprets blue prints now and tells other people what to do. My degree had an AAA entry requirement in 2002, I am in a professional career, he earns more than I do.

[quote toucantoucaninatree]@Miljea also the kind of courses you're talking about will involve many hours of work placement. That is when the student is put under pressure. Doing a three hour exam doesn't replicate the experience of making decisions on the job. [/quote]
Students don't 'make decisions on the job'. Their mentors do.

@MadameMinimes you are making a distinction between those who are naturally bright and those who work hard. As an employer I would prefer the hard worker. I’m not sure it matters why high grades are achieved, either show useful skills.

@Miljea so do you still think that healthcare students need to do exams to show their skills under pressure? As I absolutely think it's the placements that demonstrate that (I speak as an AHP who trains and mentors student AHPs)

[quote BobaCobb]@MadameMinimes you are making a distinction between those who are naturally bright and those who work hard. As an employer I would prefer the hard worker. I’m not sure it matters why high grades are achieved, either show useful skills.[/quote]
I don’t disagree. The post I was referring to seemed to suggest that the only explanation for grades going up is grade inflation because kids on an undergraduate course aren’t getting any brighter. My point was that teenagers now are not brighter than a couple of decades ago, but they are (on average) working much harder and taking education more seriously.

@Middersweekly

Agree piggy, The OP certainly is in the right job as she has been teaching for decades! I’m sure she has met every teaching standard necessary over the years. When the OP sat A-levels there was no other means of level 3 assessment. Had she done an advanced BTEC for example she may have got distinctions.

Thank you. Ofsted (whether I agree with it or not) and constant appraisal and lesson observations surely shows when teaching is anything less than outstanding. Yes my a levels weren't great and yes I worked really hard for them. But I got a 2:1 degree relevant to my chosen career. DD is currently doing a levels - hence my original question. I worked as hard as her. She's not academically amazing but has the work ethic and determination which has her on track for 3 As.

If you can only manage grade E at A level, a degree isn't the only option, by brother is very bright but didn't do well at sixth form, he initially trained as a plumber via an evening college route

Very true. Not great if you get Es at A level but aren't practically minded either though. Not sure what you are meant to do then

you are making a distinction between those who are naturally bright and those who work hard. As an employer I would prefer the hard worker. I’m not sure it matters why high grades are achieved, either show useful skills

as an employer you need both - you need people who will slog to get to the right result and people who have ideas and work on things quickly. A good manager makes sure they have a diverse team with different skills.

Here's a link to the institutions awarding the highest number of 2.1's.

thetab.com/uk/2020/11/24/these-are-the-50-unis-you-should-have-gone-to-if-you-wanted-that-easy-2-1-183945

Which includes many fabled Russell Group universities.

that level of academic achievement is going to mean a serious lack of subject knowledge, poor written communication skills, a difficulty in learning new skills and information, and therefore a much reduced likelihood of being a successful and inspiring teacher

And yet I've just written a reference for someone who got Ds and Es in her A levels, but got a 2.1 in her art degree and now wants to be an art teacher. She has excellent communication skills. I think recruiters need to be more open minded. All good grades tell you is that someone was good at exams (at degree level there tends to be more coursework and projects making up grades).

I was good at exams, but there are people who got lower A level grades who are doing much better in their (legal) careers than I have.

Not great if you get Es at A level but aren't practically minded either though. Not sure what you are meant to do then

And there are actually loads of kids like this (my own DS included - he didn't get Es but his results weren't great and he was one who was lucky because he got an unconditional offer if firmed before they were discouraged : his uni asks for BBC for his course and he missed this ). An assumption is often made that students who get Cs/Ds/Es at A Level are somehow magically OK because they must be good with their hands/like the outdoors/be sporty/enjoy people facing work. University was definitely the best fit for my boy , even though many would beg to differ. He needs three years to find himself/mature/ improve his skills/ decide what he wants to do. Writing and general knowledge are his stronger suits, relatively speaking.

Wow, you must feel such a failure at Durham /LSE if you don't get a 1st or :1. No wonder so many students I hear of at Durham are very stressed. Managing expectations against peers is hard at the best of times.

I guess those stats showing the most selective unis adjusting degree outcomes in relation to intake, which seems fair enough really in may ways.

I think I am the same age/older than many on this thread. From my immediate friendship groups doing the same/similar subjects to me, three got a first and I know of about 5 others who did so - so quite a lot , not hen's teeth. Two went into academia, two are writers, one is a broadsheet nature journalist, one a successful film director and one is a top flight corporate lawyer , so they went on to deserved success. I only knew one 'Desmond' and she was devastated : very hardworking and had transferred to our uni after her A Levels were remarked. It's sad really and I can only imagine the feeling must be worse nowadays.

@Piggywaspushed, definitely stressful! But I think the pressure to get A's & A* at A level is unbearable pressure also, especially if the DC has been privately educated.

A friend of mine bombed A levels, I think got two D's or maybe CD, took an HND, then a degree at a former poly, got a 2.1 (only one 1st awarded that year) and now earns a high 6 figure salary. It's a shame that person would be written off now.

[quote toucantoucaninatree]@Miljea so do you still think that healthcare students need to do exams to show their skills under pressure? As I absolutely think it's the placements that demonstrate that (I speak as an AHP who trains and mentors student AHPs) [/quote]

Yes, I do think there needs to be examined content in a HCP degree. As much as anything, the quality of on-the-job assessment can vary enormously from placement to placement; and we definitely would get students who had been 'signed off' for certain things at another site, who patently hadn't mastered that skill, and I have on several occasions been asked to sign students off for things I haven't seen them do. Sometimes, the assessor and 'assessee' (😊) were mates at uni but 1 year apart.

Such assessing is rife, whereas a sit-down exam is cut and dried.

[quote Soma]**@Piggywaspushed*, definitely stressful! But I think the pressure to get A's & A at A level is unbearable pressure also, especially if the DC has been privately educated.

A friend of mine bombed A levels, I think got two D's or maybe CD, took an HND, then a degree at a former poly, got a 2.1 (only one 1st awarded that year) and now earns a high 6 figure salary. It's a shame that person would be written off now.[/quote]

I don't think they would be 'written off' these days! They would probably do an access course or a BTEC then with a year or so's more maturity, go to Uni.

They would have stood much less chance of going to Uni back in the day than now, when- and this had been the crux of the discussion, you can get into Uni on EE! Or, in the case if someone I know, a cobble together of level 2 courses, non-examined access courses, functional maths and English. Doing a HCP degree.

I really don't think many can get in on EE. There was a period in time (early 90s?) when tis was definitely happening as I remember my old Cambridge and public school HOP sneering about 'Meeja Studees' on EE.

I think it is definitely true that EE now is a) rare and b) worse than EE in 1993.

It depends on the job. My graduate son whose job was a postman for 3 years and now food delivery driver for 4 years - we joke his most useful , only needed, qualification was his driving test which he passed aged 17 as did all 5 of my children. He might as well have left school at 14 really. Anyway he says he is glad he wants to university and he likes his work and wants to it for life.

For competitive and higher paid jobs employers need some kind of filter as there are vast vast vast numbers of applicants including for the law jobs my other sons are currently after. Your AAB and 2/1 is just the start and most people with that or higher don't get the jobs. If they went to 3 A stars they would lose good people. If they went to CCC and above there would be too many to assess (and law DOES require a certain ability to learn and know the law and think quickly and write English and that kind of thing otherwise you damage the clients and lose them millions of pounds so we cannot really let people in to that who are not up to it - same with doctors)

@Xenia out of interest- does your son who is a good delivery driver earn enough to live the life he wants/ support a family etc?

I guess the advantage of being a graduate is if needs must he can always train up and enter a different field?