How on Earth do a level lower achievers get to uni with the grades that are being asked?

[NCTDN]

If I wanted to go to uni now, I'd have no chance. In my day, I needed three E grades to get into teaching, from which I've had a fabulous career.
DD is very lucky and looking at places asking for 3As (Not teaching) but I'm so shocked at how high everywhere asks for. I went to what was primarily a teacher training college and even that is asking for 3 alleged at grade b.
So my question is, what do teenagers do these days if they get grades C D or E? It must be so disheartening.

Point is, many people in my day did not go to university. You generally needed As or Bs, perhaps Cs. If you weren’t at that level, you applied to polytechnics instead. If you got Ds and Es, those grades would often rule those out too. A lot of people from my day went off to become, say, nurses and as that wasn’t a degree programme, none of them went to university either.

Having seen some of my own children apply to university, it seems to me that it’s generally easier to get in than it was. Take all those required grades with a pinch of salt. I’ve seen people get in to great universities with far worse grades than requested.

The aim of the blind interviewing process is to get the best employees for the role, not just those who went to the “right “ Uni or school and can easily pass exams.

The most academic aren’t necessarily the best for the role.

@titchy

Basically what we're grade Bs back in the day are now grade As.

Foundation degrees exist as do foundation years.

Being blunt though if you get 3 x Es uni isn't for you - at least not yet. Many do mature a lot in their early 20s and do well with Access courses though, so no kid should write themselves off aged 18 with 3 x Es.

I agree with this. I did very badly at A levels, all Fs and Us. Even back in the 1970s that wasn't enough for uni so I didn't go. I now know that it wasn't that I wasn't clever enough, I just didn't work hard. I messed around and expected stuff to come easily and I would have done the same at uni too. It would have been wasted on me.

It was a real shock to me, going out to paid work. That's when I found out what concentration and effort meant. I'd been told repeatedly on school reports that I needed to concentrate and work harder but it wasn't until I had a succession of bosses and mangers pushing me that I learned what those things actually meant. I realised it wasn't enough to be clever, I also needed to work much, much harder that I had at school and not switch off mentally when things got difficult.

I did eventually go to university - I started on my 50th birthday. By then I had acquired the skills I needed to make the most of it and I now have an MSc.

should we have a system using AI where a student uploads everything once only - certs, results, key words eg they like rugby or are vegan or whatever, work experience, do a psych test once,

My dd has just done similar applying for an OT position in NHS wales
She hasnt even official graduated yet, still waiting for her final score.

She had to go on the NHS website and look at the various positions available to her as a graduate

She had to chose 4 different jobs

upload a 5 minute video on a case study of one of her placement patients

plus 3000 word application answering questions on experience , how she had handled difficult colleagues , shown respect to patients in a very difficult situation etc

Then 3 weeks later they loaded her a job offer onto the system, thankfully she got her first choice, all she has to do is to graduate now. She says it has taken a big weight off her shoulders

It’s all really interesting isn’t it.

I agree that A Level results or uni attended or degree result don’t always tell you who will do well at lots of jobs. For some jobs though, being very academic is a requirement and the firms that hire for top city graduate schemes seem to think generally that there’s a strong correlation between A Level results and uni attended and who they want ...not in all cases, but frequently.

A level results and uni attended are blunt instruments for sifting thousands of applications which come in for some graduate schemes. They are blunt instruments and they will exclude some exceptional candidates, but they have been used for many years because they are a speedy method and broadly show the strongest candidates.

Where different systems have been used, when talking about these very particular city graduate schemes or very competitive other schemes (and I recognise the majority don’t apply for these and there aren’t places for the majority) the vast majority of places still go to those with the very best A Levels and degrees from top unis. These things, even if they cannot be used for recruitment, are still very good indicators of being successful at interview and in those jobs. There will always be exceptions, and I think it’s right that those exceptions also have the opportunity to get onto the scheme too.

However, when we talk about this, I think we still need to recognise that students with very weak A Levels and who go to much lower ranked unis, are very unlikely to get accepted into these highly competitive schemes which are very niche. It simply is the reality. There is a correlation between having top A Levels and doing well in those aptitude tests and group tasks that form part of the selection process. It doesn’t mean some of those people with much lower A Level results or who have lower degrees from less well regarded unis can’t get good jobs or go into be as successful in the world of work as many of those who get into the schemes I’m talking about, and there are lots of different jobs which require different skill sets which might pay more or be more rewarding than some of the highly sought after jobs I mention. However, I think we can too far and tell ourselves or the teens of today that A Level results don’t matter or uni attended doesn’t matter and without good outcomes on these measures they have equal chances to those who have them, because that simply isn’t true. The world is even more competitive than previously and these core indicators of potential and attainment still count for a lot, even if they aren’t the only factors.

[quote daisypond]@Lancelottie
No, the exceptional people got 5 As at A level, including Further Maths, and went to Cambridge. There was always a couple.
A good handful would get results like mine and went off to good universities- not Oxbridge, though. None of us tried.[/quote]
That sounds more like lack of aspiration rather than being unable to get in though.

There may be an element of that, certainly. I had the impression you needed to be really exceptional to apply. I was turned down from Newcastle and Sheffield, much lower ranked universities. I did get offered my top three choices, though.

My husband went with 4As and one of those was general studies.

My husband went to Oxford and he had A, B and C.

It’s still the case today, that those with an excellent profile, who would have a good chance at Oxbridge disqualify themselves and imagine it is for some mythically clever people or not for people ‘like them’ in terms of intelligence or background. There are some of those mythically clever there, but also a good number of very bright people who had a go. Many of them are from backgrounds where they are encouraged to have a go and from schools where it is common to apply so the infrastructure and it being the norm to try is there. Widening access and boosting aspiration is a big thing now though.

It’s also the case that people disqualify themselves from applying for some of those very competitive jobs, when they have got the skills and qualifications to have a decent chance of getting a place. And then there are those who have exceptional self- belief but really don’t have the qualifications or skills, who confidently apply. But if you don’t apply, you won’t get the job or the place, and sometimes those less capable people manage to blag their way in.

I agree that resilience and determination from those who don’t have stellar academic profiles, or who have had fairly major fails at some point academically, or a personal setback count for a lot. People with character who keep fighting and who are brave enough to try again or push towards a dream often find they get there..maybe not as quickly as some people but in the end. Sadly, despite lots of booster talks and sessions about resilience and determination in schools, lots of young people don’t have a great deal of these.

It’s also the case that people disqualify themselves from applying for some of those very competitive jobs, when they have got the skills and qualifications to have a decent chance of getting a place

I would think that the extremely rigorous recruitment process that Parker231's company employs is enough to scare off the less confident applicants. I don't know if anyone watched Industry last year, but I was reminded of it when I read Parker231's post.

@RampantIvy - I 100% agree it’s a tough process - I don’t think I would have been recruited in today’s market. I’d like to think that the blind recruitment process gives more diversity in the company and that it isn’t just down to the school and Uni you went to. For us a couple of the problems are that we are competing with other firms for the best candidates (and many have a similar recruitment system) and there are too many graduates entering our market for the roles available.

It’s more common to get higher grades now so your grades really don’t correlate to today

"Sadly, despite lots of booster talks and sessions about resilience and determination in schools, lots of young people don’t have a great deal of these"

So true - is it because of the modern parenting style?

I don't think so. Social media and the opportunity for online bullying, plus the pressure that exam factories schools put on their pupils can't help.

Should we have a system using AI where a student uploads everything once only

Not yet! The attempts so far tend to, unsurprisingly, be 'self fulfilling prophecies' - companies which have historically had an imbalance in favour of men and/or white people will find the AI preferentially selects white men. This isn't necessarily because of the most overt factors but in the second level info - where you went to school (a case in the US I read about efficiently binned applicants from women's colleges because they'd not had employees from them in the past) ; interests can be strong proxies for social class and sex ('rugby' would be likely to generate a significant positive weighting in the U.K.) .

Uploading the basic info once in a standard format would make life easier for people having to make dozens or hundreds of applications, of course, but fgs don't try training AIs on it except as a research project for now.

My DD applied for (I think) 10 pupillages before her BPTC. She would never write the same application for all of them! It needs to be tailored to the chamber/company/job. They really are not all the same and different attributes are looked at very differently by those making the decisions.

When there are vast numbers of applicants, there is an issue with employers not really wishing to cut down numbers. It is possible to do this by having set requirements and making these known. Do not advertise low minimum requirements if the employer never takes these people. When I did CIPD exams we would always say recruitment is about controlling the process. Who on earth has the time to sift through thousands of applicants? It’s is not fair to applicants and, although you might find one gem, you have taken days to find them. Others will meet the requirements and be great employees.

Looking at the A-level stats (all subjetcs) then:

Not much difference between 2019 and 2009 but massive difference to 1993.
A*-B - 51.6% ('19), 52.0% ('09), 30.5% ('93).
E and below - 9.0% ('19), 9.7% ('09), 33.7% ('93).

I'm in good company with my D and E's!

So essentially “failure”has been eliminated. No A* in 93 and I don’t think in 09 either. Didn’t they start in 2010? I am amazed E and lower was so high back in 93 though.

Yes, sorry, 2010 was the first year of A*.

It's because everyone wants to go to uni now. It wasn't usual back in the early 90s when I left school to go to uni unless you went to a grammar or fee paying school. Now everyone goes, the universities have had to narrow down their applicants.

I suppose that's right - I went to a grammar school and it was pretty well expected that everyone would go onto higher education (maybe not uni but poly or HE college). And they weeded out some at 16 who went off the technical college. But at other local schools hardly anyone went to uni.

Although as "everyone" goes, the unis also offer a lot more places and have expanded massively - it was already underway when I went to uni, there are a couple of thousand more students in the city when I left than when I started.

@haveaday

It's because everyone wants to go to uni now. It wasn't usual back in the early 90s when I left school to go to uni unless you went to a grammar or fee paying school. Now everyone goes, the universities have had to narrow down their applicants.

I think it’s the opposite. There are far, far more courses now and far, far more universities. Yes, lots more people go, but that in fact hasn’t made the universities more choosy. They are less choosy - they need to fill their courses.

Plenty of universities are not remotely choosy. It is fairly easy to argue there are too many of them.

Looking back to when DH and I were at grammar schools (different ones) there was around 40% going to university at best. Plenty did 2 A levels at DH’s grammar too. Unheard of now of course. This qualified DCs for polytechnics. Teaching, nursing, accountancy and all sorts of jobs could be studied for whilst working. HND or HNC courses were the norm for the non grad young people. They allowed a different route and plenty took them. Now university has replaced these but we have 30% in non grad jobs who have degrees. So obviously there are too many degrees.

Btech was the answer here. My son got mainly 4s and 5s at GCSE and would have been lucky to get grade Cs at A level. He took Btech and achieved Distinction * Distinction Distinction. He got a place at a very well respected university on a course that he would never have achieved the A level grades for. A lot of degrees are modular and involve coursework and reports rather than just exams. They are a very similar structure to Btech and my son is doing really well. The advice we received from the head if sixth form to take Btech was faultless. Foundation courses are good too but not offered in every subject.