Another year online?

[Ellewoods20]

Despite the easing of restrictions in June, some universities have informed students that lectures will remain online in the next academic year. What’s the point? :(

It absolutely is allowed. It still has to be socially distanced and should ideally be courses which really need the on campus element.

Assume you're not in England then. English unis are NOT allowed to go back till 17 May unless lab or other essential (not 'ideally') reason. Two hour History lectures should remain online.

@titchy

It absolutely is allowed. It still has to be socially distanced and should ideally be courses which really need the on campus element.

Assume you're not in England then. English unis are NOT allowed to go back till 17 May unless lab or other essential (not 'ideally') reason. Two hour History lectures should remain online.

Both me and DH are in England. There is f2f teaching taking place on campus at both our universities- all subjects that are deemed to need on campus facilities or interaction.

I work in an education faculty and some of the teaching courses are back on campus.

all subjects that are deemed to need on campus facilities or interaction.

Yeah I said that. But where content can be delivered online it should be. Not that I agree - I think unis should have gone back when schools did. But I'm not the DfE who I suspect forgot about universities

My impression is that at the moment there is quite a divide between essay/library social science/humanities subjects and everyone else. At my uni - medics, labs, teaching, arts, design are going back if they haven't already. But our Social sciences/humanities will have online lectures etc going forth from September.

There has obviously always been quite a difference in teaching/campus experiences between different degrees but this coming academic year such differences will be magnified even further.

My sons who finished 3 years at Bristol last summer most of the time (pre covid) had face to face lectures (one BA and one BSc). One of mine did sometimes listen to the recording instead of getting up early but had plenty of friends attending every single lecture in person, chatting before and after, meeting people and having all that goes with this. My son also has an eye issue which means he has to have regular breaks from screens so tends to go into libraries and use real books and print outs. Anyway he didn't have that in his first year at university and despite getting glasses he still has the problem so for him zoom etc is not ideal.

Back 2 years ago there was one temporary lecturer who was refusing to press the record button (she was also pretty useless more generally and so many complaints the head of the department came in to sit in to watch her perform at one point)., All the others just pressed record once in the lecture all and then students could watch the lecture later or if they learn by listening again and again. Surely that should be possible - lecturer forced to attend in the lecture hall whether they like it or not, no mask and if we really have to only allow half the hall to be full but presses the record button at the start.

I suspect that OU courses are going to increase now.

It'll be interesting to see whether this trend continues. One of the limiting factors when it comes to our admissions was the size/availability of large lecture halls. So if online lectures continue thereafter, we might actually be able to accept a lot more students for our humanities/social sciences subjects e.g. econ etc especially those subjects tyat has a lot of international students. So some of this is clearly covid related but perhaps not all

@FHOJfinf18

My impression is that at the moment there is quite a divide between essay/library social science/humanities subjects and everyone else. At my uni - medics, labs, teaching, arts, design are going back if they haven't already. But our Social sciences/humanities will have online lectures etc going forth from September.

There has obviously always been quite a difference in teaching/campus experiences between different degrees but this coming academic year such differences will be magnified even further.

And if there are such long term differences between types of course, then surely the courses that don't need expensive labs, practicals, hands-on tuition, etc., should be a lot cheaper than those that do. We're likely to start seeing a two tier pricing structure based on the amount of physical/face to face work (which requires physical premises, equipment etc) and the cheaper to provide wholly/mainly online courses.

@titchy

all subjects that are deemed to need on campus facilities or interaction.

Yeah I said that. But where content can be delivered online it should be. Not that I agree - I think unis should have gone back when schools did. But I'm not the DfE who I suspect forgot about universities

But it does mean that some universities have quite a bit of on campus teaching taking place despite what some people on this thread think!

That's the point I was making.

@RampantIvy

I suspect that OU courses are going to increase now.

Only of people want a fully distanced learning experience. That's very different to blended learning.

Distanced is fully independent, guided study whereas blended will have timetabled face to face interaction- even if that's via Teams.

And if there are such long term differences between types of course, then surely the courses that don't need expensive labs, practicals, hands-on tuition, etc., should be a lot cheaper than those that do. We're likely to start seeing a two tier pricing structure based on the amount of physical/face to face work (which requires physical premises, equipment etc) and the cheaper to provide wholly/mainly online courses.

They tried to implement variable tuition fees years ago but that didn't work. The fees students pay do not cover the cost of running many degree programmes so those 'cheaper to run' courses already subsidise other more expensive courses. Students aren't just paying for tuition they're paying for all the other things that allow a university to run effectively - Well being, disability, careers, library, IT, HR, marketing, education liaison.....they all still need to be paid for regardless of how you deliver your courses.

@DelBocaVista

And if there are such long term differences between types of course, then surely the courses that don't need expensive labs, practicals, hands-on tuition, etc., should be a lot cheaper than those that do. We're likely to start seeing a two tier pricing structure based on the amount of physical/face to face work (which requires physical premises, equipment etc) and the cheaper to provide wholly/mainly online courses.

They tried to implement variable tuition fees years ago but that didn't work. The fees students pay do not cover the cost of running many degree programmes so those 'cheaper to run' courses already subsidise other more expensive courses. Students aren't just paying for tuition they're paying for all the other things that allow a university to run effectively - Well being, disability, careers, library, IT, HR, marketing, education liaison.....they all still need to be paid for regardless of how you deliver your courses.

Yes, every business has similar kinds of overheads that are needed to allow the business to operate as a whole, but other types of business don't charge the same for all the different products/services they offer, do they? The overheads are absorbed/allocated across the board (there are all kinds of different models as to how to spread those costs across different parts of the business) and then "selling" prices are based on the specific costs incurred for those products/services they're selling - the products/services that cost more to provide almost certainly will have higher prices.

@Kazzyhoward as PP said - the 'cheaper' modules subsidize the expensive course so there won't be different pricing models.

But yes, quite a few students are back on campus. But quite a few wont get as many 'live' hours next year.

@Kazzyhoward When it comes to marking - my uni has suspended the mandatory 4 weeks turn around time due to covid - so lecturers might be well within their right not to have marked the work.

Yes, every business has similar kinds of overheads that are needed to allow the business to operate as a whole, but other types of business don't charge the same for all the different products/services they offer, do they? The overheads are absorbed/allocated across the board (there are all kinds of different models as to how to spread those costs across different parts of the business) and then "selling" prices are based on the specific costs incurred for those products/services they're selling - the products/services that cost more to provide almost certainly will have higher prices.

That would only work if the tuition fees were more than the cost of running the more expensive degree programmes. But this isn't the case. There is no surplus money to absorb across the board to enable universities to charge less for certain courses. It's the complete opposite. The 'cheaper to run' courses and international students subsidise the rest.

This is why viewing higher education as a commodity doesn't work.

@titchy

It absolutely is allowed. It still has to be socially distanced and should ideally be courses which really need the on campus element.

Assume you're not in England then. English unis are NOT allowed to go back till 17 May unless lab or other essential (not 'ideally') reason. Two hour History lectures should remain online.

That’s my understanding - unless medics and final year ‘practical’ courses such as chem and music. Anyone know the %?

That’s my understanding - unless medics and final year ‘practical’ courses such as chem and music. Anyone know the %?

My uni must have missed the memo. F2F teaching has resumed for years 1 and 2 and postgrad. Most of my 3rd and 4th year undergrad students are back on campus using the facilities. STEM and STEM related.

DD has done lab practicals recently and is attending a dissection today, but everything else is online.

And if there are such long term differences between types of course, then surely the courses that don't need expensive labs, practicals, hands-on tuition, etc., should be a lot cheaper than those that do. We're likely to start seeing a two tier pricing structure based on the amount of physical/face to face work (which requires physical premises, equipment etc) and the cheaper to provide wholly/mainly online courses.

No, for two reasons. Firstly the £9250
in theory covers the cost of a humanities degree (obvs is doesn't - there's a lot of cross subsidising going on), but regardless science costs more - with Gov funds topping up the difference. It's not the case that science costs £9250 and everything else is less.

Secondly fees are capped. We cannot legally charge home students more.

If you want to see the actual cost of delivering a programme, look at the overseas fees.

@changi

That’s my understanding - unless medics and final year ‘practical’ courses such as chem and music. Anyone know the %?

My uni must have missed the memo. F2F teaching has resumed for years 1 and 2 and postgrad. Most of my 3rd and 4th year undergrad students are back on campus using the facilities. STEM and STEM related.

Wasn’t it gov who said may 17?!

Wasn’t it gov who said may 17?!

They actually said March 8th for courses with a practical element. Not restricted to STEM only or any specific year.

dfemedia.blog.gov.uk/2021/03/05/who-can-go-back-to-university-and-when-what-support-is-available-students-questions-answered/

[quote changi]Wasn’t it gov who said may 17?!

They actually said March 8th for courses with a practical element. Not restricted to STEM only or any specific year.

dfemedia.blog.gov.uk/2021/03/05/who-can-go-back-to-university-and-when-what-support-is-available-students-questions-answered/[/quote]
I already said that above. Pls read the thread. Some were saying it was all courses at their uni. It’s very inconsistent and IMO unfair on students who pay the same wherever and whatever course they are on. Shambles.

I already said that above. Pls read the thread.

You said...

"That’s my understanding - unless medics and final year ‘practical’ courses such as chem and music."

Please read your own posts.

Some were saying it was all courses at their uni.

Nobody has said this. We've said that some students are back and for some universities this equates to quite a large number.

Back 2 years ago there was one temporary lecturer who was refusing to press the record button

And she was (and still is) completely within her legal rights to do so. You are fond of advocating for pressing the law on students' behalves, @Xenia but lecturers also have legal rights to intellectual copyright.

Students aren't just paying for tuition they're paying for all the other things that allow a university to run effectively - Well being, disability, careers, library, IT, HR, marketing, education liaison.....they all still need to be paid for regardless of how you deliver your courses

Heating
Lighting
Building maintenance
Cleaning
Gardening
Security
Food subsidy
Bursaries
Scholarships
Consumables
Computers
Printers
Internal postal services

And so on & on - think of a village of 30,000 people working intensively and there all the time.