Another year online?

[Ellewoods20]

Despite the easing of restrictions in June, some universities have informed students that lectures will remain online in the next academic year. What’s the point? :(

[mumsneedwine]

Complaining. But they shouldn't have to. The Uni should just do its job properly, as promised.

[DelBocaVista]

@mumsneedwine

Complaining. But they shouldn't have to. The Uni should just do its job properly, as promised.

Yes they should but if you don't think they're delivering what they've promised then you should complain.

I'm not sure what else to advise? 🤷🏼‍♀️

[mumsneedwine]

@DelBocaVista they are. Both to the Uni and to the professional body that awards their degrees. A few are taking legal advice via rich lawyer parents and I can see a legal case brewing of breach of contract. Let's see what happens.
But for now I have a v upset kid who feels like giving up. And I'm angry.

[ShroomShroom]

@Badbadbunny our move to blended was part of our digital strategy that was designed to span the next 5 years. So the idea was that some programmes would pilot blended probably starting September 2021 and then by 2025 all students would get some experience of blended learning.

This is part of our employability strategy as a huge number of workplaces were forecast to have remote working and online learning of some sort. So our employer liaison groups were asking for students to have those kinds of skills and experiences too.

For us this was going to be a major promotion point so yes students would be told. As it was Covid made it all happen last year which wasn't what we wanted at all.

For us, when we talk about recorded lectures we don't mean recording a 1-2 hour lecture in one go but rather breaking down what would be longer lectures into smaller recorded chunks with contextual written information accompanying them plus maybe links to further reading, videos, podcasts etc. The literature on learning tells us this is good practice.

[AllThatisSolid]

For us, when we talk about recorded lectures we don't mean recording a 1-2 hour lecture in one go but rather breaking down what would be longer lectures into smaller recorded chunks with contextual written information accompanying them plus maybe links to further reading, videos, podcasts etc. The literature on learning tells us this is good practice.

This.

Whereas pedagogical research for the last, ummmm 30 years at least, suggests that talking at 200 students in a room for 50 minutes is actually not conducive to the best student learning.

[PantTwizzler]

@AllThatisSolid

I know for a fact that one university named early on on this thread is already back to in person delivery

I'm teaching some stuff in person, and some stuff on line. We're doing it within government guidelines and because, yes, we are dealing with a disease which can kill people (just heard today of the death of a colleague at 50 from COVID. It's not "just flu").

Classic strawman there. No one on this thread thinks it's "just flu". I also know of people who have sadly died of covid. I am 100% in favour of following the law. What I strongly object to is adding to the law.

[PantTwizzler]

@mumsneedwine I deeply sympathise and feel very similar.

I feel there's a weird disconnect going on with universities and the government saying "We know how difficult it is for you" and posting links to a mental health hotline... and then condemning the students to solitary confinement. It's inhuman.

[Stirmecrazy]

[quote mumsneedwine]@DelBocaVista they are. Both to the Uni and to the professional body that awards their degrees. A few are taking legal advice via rich lawyer parents and I can see a legal case brewing of breach of contract. Let's see what happens.
But for now I have a v upset kid who feels like giving up. And I'm angry.[/quote]
@mumsneedwine I would be very interested in seeing how that plays out as my DD is also doing a medical based degree backed by a professional body . I am deeply concerned she is just not getting the uni contact hours in order to ultimately do her profession . She is totally adrift at the moment and although there are probably some great lecturers on this board so this isn’t a personal criticism against them. Removing face to face removes one level of accountability in my eyes as you don’t get a forum for instant response (my DD is still waiting for feedback from work she produced in March from one of her lecturers ). I wish my concerns were all about the student union and student societies not taking place but some of us parents are actually fundamentally concerned about the quality of teaching being given in order to pursue professional careers here which our children have been working towards for years It will ultimately also affect us all as these are our future doctors, nurses, lawyers, playwrights, teachers and lecturers.

[DelBocaVista]

my DD is still waiting for feedback from work she produced in March from one of her lecturers

The university should have guidelines on when students receive feedback. Ours is 3 weeks - If she can find this then she has something tangible to go the university with. It should be in her student handbook.

This would not be acceptable at my university.

[RampantIvy]

I would turn it round and say "What is the point in packing 250 people into one room, when the same content can be delivered on-line?

DD says that lectures delivered in person are not the same as pre-recorded online lectures. Live lectures in a lecture theatre were 50 minutes long. Now they can be anything up to two hours long. Everyone she has talked to on her course is behind with watching lectures. Since going back to university in September she had three days off at Christmas and three days off at Easter.

[Stirmecrazy]

@DelBocaVista

my DD is still waiting for feedback from work she produced in March from one of her lecturers

The university should have guidelines on when students receive feedback. Ours is 3 weeks - If she can find this then she has something tangible to go the university with. It should be in her student handbook.

This would not be acceptable at my university.

Thanks @Delbocavista I will get her to look into this. I do feel particularly sad that my DD who is only 18 and first year Uni should be in the situation where she has to complain to get lecturers to do what they should be doing as part of their job. As I have just said above I do believe that Covid has allowed the less motivated element of Uni lecturers (and they exist in every profession universities are not immune to this and it would be naive to argue they are) to shirk their responsibilities. I know this first hand as I have uni employed friends who like to complain about other school’s lack of performance over the last year and maybe this is influencing my general thinking but removing face to face is definitely a big factor of this and has allowed this element to develop .
How often have you advised students to complain about courses @delbocavista previous to covid and yet you are continually doing this for this thread so something is definitely not working for some of these courses/universities so you must understand the frustration of parents/students at the thought of this carrying on for another year particularly if legal social distancing restrictions are lifted.

[DelBocaVista]

How often have you advised students to complain about courses @delbocavista previous to covid and yet you are continually doing this for this thread so something is definitely not working for some of these courses/universities so you must understand the frustration of parents/students at the thought of this carrying on for another year particularly if legal social distancing restrictions are lifted.

The universities minister has made it clear that students should complain if they feel their university has not delivered this year. I'm just reiterating that point.
Hearing about universities or academics underperforming really pisses me off too because we all get tarred with the same brush which is so unfair.
If a student is genuinely being treated poorly then I would encourage them to complain - I would say the same pre-covid.
But please don't generalise. There are lots of us going above and beyond because we care about our students, we are passionate about our subjects and we want students to have a positive experience.

I completely understand people's frustrations - as a university academic I don't want this to carry on any longer . I want to be back on campus seeing my students in real life and teaching in a non socially distanced way.

[sendsummer]

Firstly even if most home students have there education subsided by the state, international students are most certainly customers.

Secondly as said by many PPs, what all students want is the choice for lectures. Live lectures that are recorded offer this and are generally preferred by academics anyway. I have yet to meet one of my colleagues who likes giving an international meeting talk to a screen rather than to a live audience and that is no different to delivering lectures to students.
Universities’ senior management won’t be able to blame COVID for ever for reducing f2f hours. Some universities have continually increased the number of their students with resulting overcrowding of facilities and over stretching of teaching academics’ time. Senior management at these universities may see blended learning as a way to overcome crowding whilst maintaining income for high numbers of enrolled students, including for courses that can double up as distance learning.

[dreamingbohemian]

@Stirmecrazy that is completely unacceptable. I'd advise your daughter to email her tutor first and ask why the delay -- sometimes things genuinely slip through the cracks. If there's no answer she should email her programme head, then department head if need be.

I do feel very bad for all the students who are not being treated well. I would just ask people not to assume that means all universities and department and staff aren't treating students well. It's like with the endless teacher bashing threads during lockdown -- some teachers and schools were genuinely awful, but people were rightly called out when they said all teachers were lazy and schools preferred online. It's clear that some universities have been awful but honestly not all of us have been.

If anyone wants suggestions on how their DC should word emails or proceed with complaints I'm sure we'd be happy to advise here.

[Newgirls]

@sendsummer

Firstly even if most home students have there education subsided by the state, international students are most certainly customers.

Secondly as said by many PPs, what all students want is the choice for lectures. Live lectures that are recorded offer this and are generally preferred by academics anyway. I have yet to meet one of my colleagues who likes giving an international meeting talk to a screen rather than to a live audience and that is no different to delivering lectures to students.
Universities’ senior management won’t be able to blame COVID for ever for reducing f2f hours. Some universities have continually increased the number of their students with resulting overcrowding of facilities and over stretching of teaching academics’ time. Senior management at these universities may see blended learning as a way to overcome crowding whilst maintaining income for high numbers of enrolled students, including for courses that can double up as distance learning.

Yes this makes much more sense. Academics on here have said previously that some lecture theatres can’t fit in all students and they don’t expect them all to attend. Seems like unis are using covid to push this through.

[Newgirls]

@mumsneedwine

Maybe DD should transfer to *@DelBocaVista* or her husbands Uni. Do they do vet med ?

Which unis are using lecture theatres at the moment? Haven’t heard of any? I thought f2f teaching wasn’t allowed yet?

[Kazzyhoward]

DS has just forwarded me an email from his Uni. Apparently "due to covid", they're not able to offer the same range of optional modules for his course for next year (year 2). He's had a quick look at the options and not impressed as the one he was really wanting to do isn't on the list anymore - they were promised a choice of 8 but the list is now only 4. This, being a Uni that made a huge song and dance at Open Days about the huge range of optional modules they offered. It's just about finished him off. He was hanging on by a thread anyway as he's only had 2 F2F sessions all year (done by PHD students not lecturers who havn't even set foot on campus). He has to "firm" his module choice this weekend. From what he's said in his email, he's not going to bother now, and intends to drop out completely. I'll have to phone him later to talk to him and explore options.

[Newgirls]

@Kazzyhoward

DS has just forwarded me an email from his Uni. Apparently "due to covid", they're not able to offer the same range of optional modules for his course for next year (year 2). He's had a quick look at the options and not impressed as the one he was really wanting to do isn't on the list anymore - they were promised a choice of 8 but the list is now only 4. This, being a Uni that made a huge song and dance at Open Days about the huge range of optional modules they offered. It's just about finished him off. He was hanging on by a thread anyway as he's only had 2 F2F sessions all year (done by PHD students not lecturers who havn't even set foot on campus). He has to "firm" his module choice this weekend. From what he's said in his email, he's not going to bother now, and intends to drop out completely. I'll have to phone him later to talk to him and explore options.

That’s appalling. So sorry to hear this.

[DelBocaVista]

Yes this makes much more sense. Academics on here have said previously that some lecture theatres can’t fit in all students and they don’t expect them all to attend. Seems like unis are using covid to push this through.

Again, NOT ALL universities!!

We have a very strict attendance monitoring system for on campus and online teaching. We never timetable teaching in rooms that won't fit the whole group.

We were already moving to a blended model because research shows us that it works effectively, it's what the students want and it supports employability. Covid just accelerated that transition. Blended still involves a significant amount of f2f teaching in most cases.

At my university (like others) we have a very thorough validation process and once we are out of emergency covid regulations any changes to courses have to go through this process and this includes moving to a blended model. You have to justify any changes and ' I just want to wfh' just doesn't cut it. To have any online teaching on my course I have to prove I've undertaken specific training in online pedagogy and have to prove I'm capable of producing high quality online teaching - interestingly I've never been ask to prove my on campus teaching is high quality 🤷🏼‍♀️

[DelBocaVista]

Which unis are using lecture theatres at the moment? Haven’t heard of any? I thought f2f teaching wasn’t allowed yet?

It absolutely is allowed. It still has to be socially distanced and should ideally be courses which really need the on campus element.
Lots of my colleagues are back teaching on campus. My DH isn't an academic but is back working on campus at least 2 days a week.

[DelBocaVista]

@Kazzyhoward

DS has just forwarded me an email from his Uni. Apparently "due to covid", they're not able to offer the same range of optional modules for his course for next year (year 2). He's had a quick look at the options and not impressed as the one he was really wanting to do isn't on the list anymore - they were promised a choice of 8 but the list is now only 4. This, being a Uni that made a huge song and dance at Open Days about the huge range of optional modules they offered. It's just about finished him off. He was hanging on by a thread anyway as he's only had 2 F2F sessions all year (done by PHD students not lecturers who havn't even set foot on campus). He has to "firm" his module choice this weekend. From what he's said in his email, he's not going to bother now, and intends to drop out completely. I'll have to phone him later to talk to him and explore options.

That is terrible.
I'd advise he speaks to the careers team as they will be able to outline all the options and they are completely impartial.

[AllThatisSolid]

It absolutely is allowed. It still has to be socially distanced and should ideally be courses which really need the on campus element.

Yup. I'm teaching in person - distanced, and masked, and with strict room capacity regulation.

I think it's clear that a lot of the parents here don't really understand the day-in day out realities of universities. A lot of old infrastructure, expensive to maintain, and often crowded in pre-COVID times. A tuition fee which doesn't cover the actual cost of each student, so that new building is risky, yet often desperately needed. 20,000 + students and staff to timetable in teaching, and increasing (not decreasing) central government surveillance of what universities do - even though the introduction of "full cost" (ha!) tuition fees effectively privatised universities. And an undergrad body increasingly unprepared for the exigencies of university-level study.

Just as COVID is forcing many businesses to rethink how they operate, the same process is happening in universities.

[changi]

My DH isn't an academic but is back working on campus at least 2 days a week.

Mine is and he is back teaching face to face from next week. A module postponed from the spring term.

[dreamingbohemian]

@Kazzyhoward

DS has just forwarded me an email from his Uni. Apparently "due to covid", they're not able to offer the same range of optional modules for his course for next year (year 2). He's had a quick look at the options and not impressed as the one he was really wanting to do isn't on the list anymore - they were promised a choice of 8 but the list is now only 4. This, being a Uni that made a huge song and dance at Open Days about the huge range of optional modules they offered. It's just about finished him off. He was hanging on by a thread anyway as he's only had 2 F2F sessions all year (done by PHD students not lecturers who havn't even set foot on campus). He has to "firm" his module choice this weekend. From what he's said in his email, he's not going to bother now, and intends to drop out completely. I'll have to phone him later to talk to him and explore options.

That is appalling and yes he should absolutely consider his options.

I would suggest not making any hasty decisions right now though. Can he speak with his personal tutor or programme head, and ask them if they intend to offer his preferred options in Year 3? He should tell them he is seriously considering withdrawing. Encourage other students to send similar emails. If enough students complain, they may reconsider.

Otherwise yes, I would be exploring other universities. If you want to say his course, maybe someone on this thread could suggest some that are handling things better.

[FHOJfinf18]

My uni is planning to have all lectures online/pre-recorded - anything above 35 students in one room will be online. Not sure whether that's been communicated to the students. I am not particularly happy with having lots of things online though it will be nice to be able to re-use some of the material. I actually like seeing students in person. Lots of our students loved online/pre-recorded lectures - more than the lecturers themselves.