Another year online?

[Ellewoods20]

Despite the easing of restrictions in June, some universities have informed students that lectures will remain online in the next academic year. What’s the point? :(

@Stirmecrazy indeed Liverpool is learning from their mistakes last year when they pushed and hoped they could do it all f2f despite everyone in the sector staring at them in disbelief. In the end, they gave their staff about a day to prep/switch over to online whereas we got given four months. So yes, thankfully Liverpool is learning. Interestingly they took the strategy last year that you are advocating now - in the end - they ended up doing the same as everyone else, but their students' were even more confused and their staff were totally overwhelmed having to learn everything over a weekend.

I think people equate the term ‘lectures’ with all teaching. Lots of courses don’t have many lectures, lectures are not very interactive, who wants to be crammed into a massive room with hundreds atm etc etc.

As a prospective student, I would want to know the extent of physical classes for seminars/tutorials/workshops/practicals etc etc. (that’s the majority of teaching for most). And also if the bar will be open

@MangosteenSoda

I think people equate the term ‘lectures’ with all teaching. Lots of courses don’t have many lectures, lectures are not very interactive, who wants to be crammed into a massive room with hundreds atm etc etc.

As a prospective student, I would want to know the extent of physical classes for seminars/tutorials/workshops/practicals etc etc. (that’s the majority of teaching for most). And also if the bar will be open

I don’t think we do equate lectures with al teaching. The problem has been that some courses received no face to face - including labs, seminars, tutorials. small group work, music lessons, drama workshops etc so we are concerned about sept.

@MangosteenSoda

I think people equate the term ‘lectures’ with all teaching. Lots of courses don’t have many lectures, lectures are not very interactive, who wants to be crammed into a massive room with hundreds atm etc etc.

As a prospective student, I would want to know the extent of physical classes for seminars/tutorials/workshops/practicals etc etc. (that’s the majority of teaching for most). And also if the bar will be open

Yep!! In fact there are no lectures on one of my courses. It's all seminars and tutorials.

@dreamingbohemian

I can't speak for all universities *@Stirmecrazy*, I know my university has said this is the plan and so have many others that I've seen. Perhaps some are waiting for the roadmap updates this week?

Announcing the plan doesn't mean my university doesn't also have several scenarios in mind, this is the plan based on the 'medium' scenario (not worst case, not best case)

If you go to the covid update pages for your university, what does their latest statement say? Maybe we could help interpret their corporate speak : ) As I said above, I think universities are not being clear enough at all!

And has your university declared this to students and potential students . Are you at Liverpool or one of those that have publicly declared online for term 1? If not why not if this is the most likely path. Students would rather hear this now rather then to be hanging on to the mistaken belief that just because present restrictions are being lifted and F2F are physically possible they will actually take place There will be universities out there hopefully who will introduce face to face lectures if legally possible next term who will have this as their main plan (I live in hope) Just checked my uni covid update . It says unfortunately we are unable to advise on mode of teaching for September 2021. Please feel free to decipher!

It is certainly taking ages to give people back their basic rights. Even now you can only have one other household inside your house and all kinds of things are still not allowed eg singing a hymn in church.

The good old days...

"On Campus, 1970" (Skip forward to 2.23 for the wonderful f2f lecture experience)

warwick.ac.uk/services/library/mrc/archives_online/filmvideo/uwa-av-3-1.mp4

That's a lovely link. I had tort lectures with Harry Street of Street on Torts in 79/80. He did the case method - so everyone would prepare the case and then in the huge hall he would pick on one student to answer all the questions and you never knew when you would be picked on. I was picked but amazingly I loved it as liked the topic and had prepared well - I was a bit of a swot.... The other big lectures were the standard stuff with just a few Q&A to them.

I do think you get more in person and I have given 1700 legal talks in the UK around the word and some recorded ones. The interaction and questions (when anyone asks a question) is very interesting certainly for the speaker and not good if no one else speaks at all though which I am sure is the case with under graduate lectures regularly and must be very annoying for lecturers.

Ha ha - hilarious! Very History Man, too.

Yes my university (not Liverpool) announced this was the plan a few weeks ago. I know quite a few others have as well.

Is that your university's full statement, that they are unable to advise? Does it say when they might announce?

I might suggest your DC write to their head of programme or department and ask what the current plan is for September, and if they don't know, when they expect to announce it. That is a perfectly reasonable question! And the department might be willing to give out more information.

They could also write to their personal tutor (if they have one ?) and explain that they need to make this decision and is there any information at all on September. The tutor might be willing to share something slightly off the record.

I know it's not fair that students have to chase this information but that's what I would advise.

That's a lovely link.

I thought you might appreciate it. I show it to my new tutees in their first tutorial.

Gasps at "just under £4 a week" for a room in halls.

@MangosteenSoda

Students do have to be proactive and take responsibility for their own engagement and interaction in the same way they would in a physical environment.

So they need to engage with each other in group activities and in breakout rooms. They are a private space for people to communicate, so of course they are fine for academic discussion.

As a tutor, I work really hard to facilitate good breakout rooms because they are key to successful group work. My breakout rooms are usually engaged, on task and collaborative. It’s really hard work though. I am genuinely amazed at how much planning I have to put into getting this right.

I’m much more shocked at how crap breakout rooms are in professional events and training. People wouldn’t sit in silence with a bag over their head in person. Don’t do the online equivalent ffs. I think my students are comparatively pretty good at them!

Whilst I agree, I do think a lot of students are suffering from internet-fatigue. When my son was working from home earlier this year, his phone was constantly "dinging" as new messages came through, almost every few minutes. He said they were notifications from all the different Uni groups he was on, including the Uni's social media (facebook, twitter, etc.), the Uni, the student union, his uni college, his flat groupchat, his accommodation building group chat, both his departmental groupchats (he's doing dual honours), chatrooms for each module, chatrooms for working groups he's in, - it came to something like 27 different Uni-based groups. He just can't keep up with it all and just "screens" out the stuff that he doesn't think is important. He's tried turning off the phone, but then he misses important messages, such as a change in timing of an online session etc.

I think people equate the term ‘lectures’ with all teaching. Lots of courses don’t have many lectures, lectures are not very interactive, who wants to be crammed into a massive room with hundreds atm etc etc

Yes.

I only do lectures in 1st year - our other years don't have any lectures at all. And my team & I have been looking at doing what others have mentioned: "flipping" the lecture theatre.

What this generally means is online & pre-recorded material, which students watch, they do the reading, then the lecture slot is a big Q&A, and the material is followed up & discussed in the seminars and often in small groups within those seminars. We often divide students into reading groups, and each reading group takes responsibility for reporting back on the reading each week.

As other experienced academics on this thread have said, lectures are not necessarily the best way of teaching. They're certainly old-fashioned.

But why actually listen to academics on this thread, when you can just blame them for all the COVID privations?

thats been his position since last year so honestly nothing new. am amazed he survived that long to be honest

Expect an announcement imminently ...

@IntoAir

thats been his position since last year so honestly nothing new. am amazed he survived that long to be honest

Expect an announcement imminently ...

Ooooh - how imminent - as in today?

He just can't keep up with it all and just "screens" out the stuff that he doesn't think is important. He's tried turning off the phone, but then he misses important messages, such as a change in timing of an online session etc.

And yet other posters on this thread are complaining about no contact & no information.

We are coaching students through this, as an employability thing - preparing them for a working life where they are going to have to learn how to triage, screen, and organise electronic communications.

Our students get updated & bullet pointed emails when we have important information for them. Still, a number of my personal tutees mumble something about "I don't read my emails." That is actually not good enough. There's really no excuse.

I don't think people are necessarily worried about the lack of lectures. Whilst they are useful it is too easy to drift off and not really focus. However I am concerned about the lack of interactive teaching - be it small group tutorials or seminars etc and the lack of access to libraries etc

In addition I think what students miss the most is normal university life ...... and let's face it life is not normal at the moment. However I wonder if universities could have made more effort like schools to give some normality........

However I wonder if universities could have made more effort like schools to give some normality

Have you actually RTFT?

Universities are not schools.

Universities have taught in person, where we've been allowed by law to do so. But as undergrads are counted as adults, government requirements (oh, those pesky laws again) require social distancing & masking. Read the thread to see what experienced, dedicated academics have to say about how that has affected how we can teach.

Universities are big communities: equivalent to small towns in number. We also have a range of ages and health statuses in both the student population, and the staff (not just teaching staff). As an employer, a university also has a duty of care not to endanger the health of its employees; and we also have a duty of care not to endanger the health of our students, especially the clinically vulnerable.

And so on.

Just RTFT.

@IntoAir - i give up

There is a gulf between those who move heaven and earth to make things happen, and those who primly cite “it’s the law “ and will be pulling the “safety” card for the rest of their working lives.

I have read on here of academics organising outdoor meet-ups and producing excellent materials. Then we have the brigade who are quite happy wfh thank you very much and are busy thinking up reasons for remote learning (eg someone from Mars might not be able to get a rocket in) after restrictions are lifted.

@IntoAir

However I wonder if universities could have made more effort like schools to give some normality

Have you actually RTFT?

Universities are not schools.

Universities have taught in person, where we've been allowed by law to do so. But as undergrads are counted as adults, government requirements (oh, those pesky laws again) require social distancing & masking. Read the thread to see what experienced, dedicated academics have to say about how that has affected how we can teach.

Universities are big communities: equivalent to small towns in number. We also have a range of ages and health statuses in both the student population, and the staff (not just teaching staff). As an employer, a university also has a duty of care not to endanger the health of its employees; and we also have a duty of care not to endanger the health of our students, especially the clinically vulnerable.

And so on.

Just RTFT.

Where was this duty of care when universities opened halls of residence last year contrary to SAGE advise . I will tell my DD who caught covid (and everyone in her flat) . Universities are quite happy to twist their rhetoric to suit their agenda .

It was only a few months ago that schools were shut. Everything was online. Some schools managed brilliantly, some barely provided anything. Some students managed well, some really struggled.

Teachers had to put up with all sorts of bashing, being told they weren't working, they were hiding behind their sofas while others just get on with their job, online learning is always rubbish, etc and so on. And there were a million threads on here where teachers patiently explained how much they were working, that they hated online too, that they had to follow government guidelines and so on.

How hard is it to understand that this is what universities have had to deal with all year? We are not schools. We were not allowed to reopen with no social distancing in the classroom. And just like schools couldn't do all the things people suggested to stay open, universities can't do all the things people are suggesting here.

Back then people suggested splitting school classes into two so there could be social distancing, teachers explained they didn't have the space. People suggested part-time rotas, teachers explained the government wouldn't let them.

I understand that if you don't work in a university, it's not obvious why we can't do all the things that people would like us to do. But I wish that at least when we try to explain why we're not doing things, that you would believe us. I mean what's more likely -- that hundreds of thousands of university staff across the country are all lazy and don't care about students? Or that everyone is trying to do what they can within the limits placed on us by the government and public health requirements?

It's not because of the teaching you get (top RGs have always been crap)

Is this generally true?
Is it because students who get the grades required for RG universities need less "hand holding/spoon feeding"

I'm really interested to know because DD is at an RG university and her course director is very much "you are all adults now, get on with it", after several students had approached her to say that they were struggling. TBH I wasn't impressed. Online lectures are often twice as long as lectures delivered in a lecture theatre, and as a result most of the students are behind with watching them. DD spent all but three days of the Christmas and Easter holidays watching lectures and doing assignments.

She is exhausted as are all of her friends.

@RampantIvy I would not be impressed with that answer either. Yes, we need to encourage students to be self-directed, but if a student is struggling we should try to find out why and then direct them to the proper support.

I'm at an RG uni but personally I think it just varies a lot across schools/departments/courses. Leadership often sets the tone.

However I wonder if universities could have made more effort like schools to give some normality........

Seriously?? I give up