Another year online?

[Ellewoods20]

Despite the easing of restrictions in June, some universities have informed students that lectures will remain online in the next academic year. What’s the point? :(

I think I'm taking three main things away from this thread:

1. Universities need to be much clearer about what 'blended learning' means in each department or course, because people seem to be interpreting it as 'everything online'. But this is not the case. In my department it means things will be roughly 80-90% back to normal this autumn, even if we have social distancing, and hopefully 100% by Term 2 or 3. That's rather positive! And I don't think unusual. Universities need to be clearer so students can make the right decisions for them.

1. If blended learning is going to continue, we need higher standards for it. I am genuinely appalled by what some students have been given this year. We spent huge amounts of time not only captioning our recorded lectures but editing the captions, because apparently this was required to meet accessibility standards. Well is it required or not? Why did some universities get away with poor quality videos or no videos at all?

We also need more funding for it somehow. My university is relatively flush and already had a huge digital/online learning sector, so there were lots of resources for staff and students already. Not all universities had that. How can we level that playing field?

(I would add this to your list of questions @Stirmecrazy -- does the university have a strong digital learning presence, does it offer bespoke online degrees? This is probably a good sign.)

1. People's expectations of universities line up with their expectations for recovery more generally. People who think everything will be totally back to normal by June don't understand why universities are planning for anything other than normality in September. People who are more wary about predicting how things will unfold are a bit more understanding.

I understand people hear Boris saying things will go back to normal and just want to believe him. But look at the recent travel announcement. People were thinking at least the US and EU would be on there, nope it ended up being only a few countries in practice. That shows the government is still being cautious. And there is no way of knowing whether we will see another wave before September.

I don't agree with every piece of criticism that's been thrown at universities on this thread but I am listening and I will keep all this in mind as we keep planning for next year.

[quote Stirmecrazy]@FHOJfinf18 you are right about RG status . My Dd chose her uni last year and was influenced by league tables and RG status. BUT that was because all Unis offered similar structures (F2F lectures seminars etc)
If I was advising my DD now I would say rip up the rule book, ignore league tables , RG status etc look at what this uni has done for its students this year , how flexible is it, what is its future agenda , online priority, , did it reimburse halls of residence fees, which Uni do you believe will ultimately teach you best (last year I assumed this was a level playing field), what was the quality of online teaching, does it have video lecture capture. There are variables in play now which were never on my agenda last year
But as I have said upthread my Dd ultimately cares about the teaching she is doing a vocational degree it is not about the degree certificate. Other students have different agendas and RG status will still have a bearing. This is a massive opportunity I believe for post 92 unis to take some control of the uni market by differentiating themselves and pushing F2F where practical and safe . My Dd would have been influenced by this and she may not have taken up her RG place.[/quote]
I'd agree with that. There is lots of information available online about individual unis and student experiences, good and bad. The league tables don't really matter anymore, especially those relating to student satisfaction, as they're obviously out of date and don't represent experiences during Covid.

My DS chose a non RG Uni despite getting 3 A*s because of other aspects of the Uni course, i.e. modules, location, collegiate, campus, etc etc. He had offers from RG Unis but didn't like them so much. So, those thinking RG unis will always have an unlimited supply of top notch students may need a rethink once the covid experiences etc are taken into account.

@Stirmecrazy and unis know that. Not all RG are the same e.g. my best mate works in the lowest-ranked RG and they have always been a lot more focused on students/f2f teaching and bringing people back. I work in one of the top ones and we are less scared of losing students as our numbers are up (in fact too many students want to come). Also our student demographic is very international and they will simply won't go to a non-RG uni.

Covid is nothing new - different unis will adapt differently to circumstances and their student body. Students will as always have a choice of where to go. Sadly, am assuming that a degree from our uni will still count for a lot more than a post-92 in most subjects because of our rep.

If I was advising an 18-year-old where to go and pay the 60k - I wouldn't put them off Oxbridge just because their teaching has always been crap for humanities/social sciences. A degree is a form of currency - for now if you pay the same amount - certain degrees are still seen as being more valuable than others. It's not because of the teaching you get (top RGs have always been crap) but the overall reputation and more importantly, because many employers use universities as their sorting office i.e. we do all the selection etc so that employers can quickly pick who is smart who is, who is hard-working who isn't.

@user1497207191

No Uni will face legal action for being unable to provide services that they aren't allowed to provide by the law in force when it is due to be provided.

If a Uni promised F2F teaching/lectures etc in September, but then couldn't provide it because of newly introduced Covid restrictions, then they're be free from legal action as long as they couldn't provide the services BECAUSE of the restrictions in place.

They have no defence if the go over and above the restrictions or if they promise but fail to deliver when there are no restrictions.

All they need to do is be honest and open about their plans. Trouble is, as we saw last Summer, and starting to see this Summer, they're being deliberately vague.

I still don’t see the issue . Why aren’t universities just promising what they normally provide pre covid They have the get out of jail card of government restrictions preventing this. Unless the agenda is to stay online despite government restrictions

That should be stay online despite NO government restrictions

@Stirmecrazy, @user1497207191
because students/public dont understand how universities operate. If they say things go back to normal but government brings in 1m rule in September most students/public dont understand that this means we cant teach f2f. As another PP suggested we run small graduation ceremonies - there is a general lack of understanding that this mean we will spend the whole year just running graduation ceremonies.

All universities want to go back to normal teaching. But most scientists also assume new variants/mutations will keep on coming and are not at all certain that we won't be back to where we were last September. Unfortunately, the public don't get that

So unis are only promising what they think they can deliver. At this stage this is vague because unlike Boris - they have customers they do care about and cant just Uturn three times a week and twice on a Friday

[quote FHOJfinf18]**@Stirmecrazy, @user1497207191
because students/public dont understand how universities operate. If they say things go back to normal but government brings in 1m rule in September most students/public dont understand that this means we cant teach f2f. As another PP suggested we run small graduation ceremonies - there is a general lack of understanding that this mean we will spend the whole year just running graduation ceremonies.

All universities want to go back to normal teaching. But most scientists also assume new variants/mutations will keep on coming and are not at all certain that we won't be back to where we were last September. Unfortunately, the public don't get that

So unis are only promising what they think they can deliver. At this stage this is vague because unlike Boris - they have customers they do care about and cant just Uturn three times a week and twice on a Friday[/quote]
Students/public certainly DO understand that any new restrictions put in place WILL impact on the F2F teaching etc. We're not stupid you know!

What we don't understand is why Unis seem to be assuming there'll be restrictions in place in September, when all the evidence suggests otherwise.

Unis have no excuse. Their "Plan A" needs to be normality in September as per the current Govt road map. Then, they need a "Plan B" in case new restrictions are brought in.

"Aim for the best prepare for the worst"

I still don’t see the issue . Why aren’t universities just promising what they normally provide pre covid They have the get out of jail card of government restrictions preventing this. Unless the agenda is to stay online despite government restrictions

As mentioned previously, I can't see ANY university offering fully online courses across the board in September. It's not something that can be decided overnight. There is a validation process to go through which is very lengthy.

What is likely to be happening (and what is happening at my university) is we are reviewing what went well over the last year and looking to adapt courses to incorporate a blended aspect where appropriate. This is something we were doing anyway pre-covid. So yes, courses may look a little different but there was a strong possibility that that would have been the case anyway - my course was on track to offer a fully online course and a blended course by 2022...i've just brought that date forward because we're in a position to offer it.

The other thing to remember is how much planning goes into these things. We want to be able to promise what we can deliver - it's all well and good saying we will be back to normal by September but if we aren't then us academics have to change entire programmes at the drop of a hat and that's when you get quality issues. From my perspective it's better to be cautious and plan for blended as that covers both on campus and online and is something that can be adapted easily if needed.

I agree that universities do need to be transparent about that though.

Unis have no excuse. Their "Plan A" needs to be normality in September as per the current Govt road map. Then, they need a "Plan B" in case new restrictions are brought in.

Have you any idea how time consuming this is? I'm already working 60 hours a week and now i'm supposed to have at least two versions of my courses ready to run from September .........

Aim for the best prepare for the worst

Unfortunately that is far too simplistic for huge institutions like universities, because the costs involved are so high. They need to look at the likelihood of the best and the worst, because if they have to switch to Plan B at the last minute, the costs will be staggering.

At the moment it is really difficult to judge how likely the best case scenario is, because what the government say and what they actually do are not in step (again, see the travel list), and because the scientists the government is supposedly relying upon are still being very cautious. We also see what is happening in India and we don't know yet how the vaccines will cope with new variants.

So universities are aiming for not-best, not-worst -- something that offers some flexibility depending on how things are.

Can I just point out, to highlight the absolutely atrocious Government policies around unis and covid - we still have not had it confirmed that we can start in person teaching on the 17th May.

We're all assuming the policy will be issued - we have been promised at least one weeks notice. So that's today. Judging by previous DfE announcements it'll be at some point this evening when a junior civil servant suddenly realises...

This is the incompetent context we're operating in.

@user1497207191

my uni has 4 scenarios for next year and are planning according to all four of them. they are not so stupid as to even only have two. Yes, they wont advertise things they cant guarantee and so what you are getting advertised is what they can promise to deliver. It is actually better than promising everything and giving students nothing

Universities must be deciding their agenda now though. Like you said they can’t spin on their heel week by week.
Shall we all guess how we think this will play out.(purely for fun) My guess is all lectures will remain online in September due to concerns of variants. There will be the promise of possible face to face lectures in January but depending on international situation , video capture facilities this will probably not materialise even if covid is eradicated in the uk due to possible remote overseas students and lack of parity in teaching preventing a two tier online/in lecture situation. I think for a lot of subjects lectures may remain online all year again
Seminars small group face to face will take place although there will be a push by some unis to do some of these remotely again influenced by international students and covid risk but I predict things will be fundamentally better than this year with most students getting at least some weekly F2F although contact hours significantly below pre covid norms even if a zero covid uk situation ensues
Halls of residence are at risk of the same level of disruption as last year but these are a revenue earning stream for unis so are not built into any conservative risk analysis. The default will always be they will remain open unless government policy forbids them. SAGE opinion does not matter in this respect (my opinion only!)
That is is my summation of next year . If this plays out ironically I will see this as a win as it will be considerably better than this year so fingers crossed. But as pointed out I know nothing about unis beyond being a consumer so probably way off mark. Anyone else care to guess

Universities must be deciding their agenda now though. Like you said they can’t spin on their heel week by week.

Would you like to tell the government that? Because they seem to think we can plan everything with one weeks notice.

Yes we're planning but without any concrete idea as to what we will be allowed to do which makes it a tad difficult!

@DelBocaVista

Universities must be deciding their agenda now though. Like you said they can’t spin on their heel week by week.

Would you like to tell the government that? Because they seem to think we can plan everything with one weeks notice.

Yes we're planning but without any concrete idea as to what we will be allowed to do which makes it a tad difficult!

Gladly I have already written two emails to Michelle . and I plan to write weekly until we get some clarification . I will also do the same for my DD’s uni. Sadly no reply to date from either!

@Stirmecrazy why are you presenting that scenario as just your own guess when that is pretty much exactly what a lot of universities are saying they will do?

Large lectures online for Term 1, possibly Term 2
All other teaching f2f as long as allowed by law
Student accommodation open as normal

It's not a guess, this is basically the plan right now

This is the incompetent context we're operating in.

I’ve heard on very good authority (part of my professional service/volunteer work in my discipline brings me into close contact with Whitehall) that Gavin Williamson’s future as Minister is on a knife edge.

@IntoAir ah thats been his position since last year so honestly nothing new. am amazed he survived that long to be honest

[quote dreamingbohemian]@Stirmecrazy why are you presenting that scenario as just your own guess when that is pretty much exactly what a lot of universities are saying they will do?

Large lectures online for Term 1, possibly Term 2
All other teaching f2f as long as allowed by law
Student accommodation open as normal

It's not a guess, this is basically the plan right now[/quote]
I thought universities said they were preparing for multiple scenarios up thread @FHOJfinf18 said her uni had 4 scenarios are they all the same!

So why won’t unis declare this now what are they waiting for?

Only a few unis have declared lectures online for next term to date . Well done Liverpool and who ever else has.. Tell first year students this now some of them think they will be having F2F lectures next term! And are making decisions on the back of this

@IntoAir

This is the incompetent context we're operating in.

I’ve heard on very good authority (part of my professional service/volunteer work in my discipline brings me into close contact with Whitehall) that Gavin Williamson’s future as Minister is on a knife edge.

He has a LOT of dirt on other ministers though which is what I understand has kept him in his position so far .... But I'd be bloody delighted if those rumours were true! As would most teachers I'd imagine.

@titchy He has a LOT of dirt on other ministers though which is what I understand has kept him in his position so far .... But I'd be bloody delighted if those rumours were true! As would most teachers I'd imagine.

You could say the same of virtually every senior minister of every govt of the last couple of decades. I'm an accountant and our entire profession were delighted to get rid of Gordon Brown due to the catalogue of tax related cock ups he presided over.

I can't speak for all universities @Stirmecrazy, I know my university has said this is the plan and so have many others that I've seen. Perhaps some are waiting for the roadmap updates this week?

Announcing the plan doesn't mean my university doesn't also have several scenarios in mind, this is the plan based on the 'medium' scenario (not worst case, not best case)

If you go to the covid update pages for your university, what does their latest statement say? Maybe we could help interpret their corporate speak : ) As I said above, I think universities are not being clear enough at all!