Another year online?

[Ellewoods20]

Despite the easing of restrictions in June, some universities have informed students that lectures will remain online in the next academic year. What’s the point? :(

@FHOJfinf18

I appreciate that students want to socialize but strictly speaking thats not why I get paid or why students pay over 60k for their degree. They take a humanities/social science degree to learn certain skills/gain certain competencies that eill hopefully land them a job. In today's employment market you need a degree for most jobs and thats why students do it. The old idea of a degree being as much about an experience etc is long gone. Now its basically a very expensive piece of paper that allows them to get a job.

I care about my students' welfare but I actually dont care whether they have a nice social life. Thats not my job.

To those saying all restrictions will be lifted by June - thats what Boris says now. Our scientists frankly disagree. Plus we have four different scenarios and I think onlynin one of them is all social distancing done away with. But we will all be cery pleased if thats indeed the case.

Large lectures are frankly a pointless waste of time for most social science/humanities subjects. Having 150kids in front of me as I recite a pre prepared lecture for 50mins is antiquated at best.I can pretend to make it interactive but realistically you might as well listen to a recording. Very very very few lecturers are truely engaging enough or have thebtime to make every lecture good enough. Yes, I would love more IT support for that but the idea itself is not a bad one.

So why do Unis make such a song and dance about the social side of things in their marketing materials, websites,open days etc? There's so much about sports, clubs & societies, "College life" for college based Unis, inter college competitions, loads of pictures showing groups of students socialising on websites etc. Unis are "selling" a lifestyle, not just an education. You, as a lecturer, may not be part of that, but your employer, your Uni, will have been marketing itself on far more than the teaching experience. You can't isolate the educational side and ignore the rest when it's part of the experience that's been promised.

Not just the social side. Again, Unis have been marketing the libraries, common rooms, study spaces, computer suites, etc., all for places to learn (and yes, socialise) so students have choices about where they do their personal studying. Then, by going further than Govt precautions, those alternative places are also closed or severely curtailed (entire areas cordoned off which could have been socially distanced), libraries with greatly reduced opening hours etc.

@Duplobuplo

Staying online next year is nothing to do with covid rules for UK students and all to do with international travel and for the huge number of international students to be able to access their degree content. It doesn't matter how many concert venues or festivals can go ahead if people from India/China/America or wherever can't get on a plane.

So let them defer a year. You can't "punish" the majority for the minority.

There will always be students who, for whatever reason, personal illness, family death, etc., who can't get to campus at the start of the year. They get deferrals, take a year out (or more) and continue their degree when they can.

@FHOJfinf18

Universities are not schools - we are not public sector institutions but enterprises. the government wants universities to be businesses so yes whoever pays the most is the most important customer.

I think it's ridiculous that we are not state-funded/state-run, but that's not the academics' fault.

the reality is that so long as students come, universities will do what they do. and no one is going to not take a place in a top uni because they will have online lectures.

And there we have it in a nutshell. An attitude that students either put up with it bugger off. So good to know that Unis and their staff care about their students!!!

Trouble is, the "popular" unis will soon lose their popularity - we now have league tables etc and prospective students take notice of them, and lots of other sources, such as student websites and social media. Some unis will some to regret their attitudes and actions.

The reading of Unis as a business who only really want the £££ from International students is the sad truth.

FHO only has a 15-20% student attendance? That's poor. That's not normal.

Donkeys years ago, I attended every single lecture, never missed one. We all did. If one student was missing we considered it odd. Bet you'd prefer that!

No but we can blame Unis for going over and beyond the laws/rules applying, can't we?

As long as you are blaming individual universities and not the whole sector.

Plus, in some cases there are very good reasons why universities have had to make the decisions they have. It's a really complex situation and saying 'well schools have done it this way' isn't helpful at all.

@Cleebope2

If you think graduation ceremonies are meaningless then you’re not in touch with public feeling on this. I work in a secondary school and we have bent over backwards to create experiences for pupils and families. I am very angry at my two children’s experience this year and their level of debt for a shit year.

Have you any idea what goes into organising a graduation ceremony and the number of students and visitors this involves??

If we broke these down into smaller events it would take months to get through them - that's just not practical! You can't ask staff to do that. At what point do we get to do our research, marking, planning and take annual leave?

It would also be irresponsible to encourage large groups of people to travel to campus when we don't know for sure if all restrictions will be lifted in June .

Wouldn't it be better to wait until we can do it properly? Most universities haven't cancelled them - they're just postponed.

@DelBocaVista

No but we can blame Unis for going over and beyond the laws/rules applying, can't we?

As long as you are blaming individual universities and not the whole sector.

Plus, in some cases there are very good reasons why universities have had to make the decisions they have. It's a really complex situation and saying 'well schools have done it this way' isn't helpful at all.

I have never said all unis and I have never mentioned schools.

You're taking about who you, personally, have done at your Uni. I'm talking about my experiences, my son's experiences, etc. We're both talking about our own experiences, not the entire sector.

No I'm not talking about the whole sector but I have a pretty good insight into a number of universities and I teach HE policy and practice so have spent some time researching the sectors response.
It's not entirely anecdotal.

I know some universities haven't performed to people's expectations and if you genuinely feel that you've had a poor experience then you should complain.

However, what many of us have tried to do is explain why certain decisions may have been made and offer some context as people working in the sector.

We're not excusing poor practice but just trying to offer up additional information.

@kazzyhoward the international students are about 50% of the course I run so it really isn't sacrificing the 'minority'.

The social side of everything in most of the world has ceased. Not just unis. PP on this thread seem to think this is a choice that unis are making to be vindictive to students. It’s a function of the pandemic. If the UK gov had managed the situation like Australia or NZ, this conversation wouldn’t be happening because everything would be functioning more or less normally. You can’t put adults’ right to socialise over public health.

The Students’ Union have been working hard at my uni to offer what they can and to run virtual events. Not the same, but no different to how the rest of the country has been living.

It’s a choice to defer and wait for the full experience or to not put your life on hold/put starting a career off for a year. It’s really unfortunate and not what anyone wants but it’s also really unfair to blame uni staff for this. I agree more clarity would be nice, but a lot of that is due to unis not knowing exactly what they will and won’t be able to do yet.

This article is a fairly rational and balanced summary of the online/offline debate that feels quite authentic
wonkhe.com/blogs/what-should-we-say-about-september/

[quote Duplobuplo]@kazzyhoward the international students are about 50% of the course I run so it really isn't sacrificing the 'minority'.[/quote]
The average percentage overall for unis is nearer 20% though. And we are assuming non of them can get into the UK in September? Borders are not closed for any country here in the UK although we have quarantine rules and to date never have been And only a minority have their own borders closed at present and with the exception of countries like Australia and NZ most allow residents to leave at some point usually within weeks of a lockdown . It’s an ever changing issue which will exist for the time being. UK boarding schools have exactly the same issue but have overcome it. I still don’t buy this as a justification for online for all students

FHO only has a 15-20% student attendance? That's poor. That's not normal.

How do you know what is normal or not? It certainly isn't unusual now that lectures are recorded.

Donkeys years ago, I attended every single lecture, never missed one. We all did. If one student was missing we considered it odd. Bet you'd prefer that!

You experience from donkeys years ago isn't really relevant. If you missed a lecture then, you would have to rely on somebody else's, usually crappy, hand written notes. That isn't the case now.

small outdoor ceremonies. No effort made. No imagination

You clearly have no idea - my university is a mid-size one, about 20,000 undergrads + postgrads. In any year, then around 7,000 people will be graduating, in their year cohorts. Our Convocations already take a week of 3 sessions per day, when all other business for senior people stop (well it doesn't they just work 18 hour days).

So, we'd be dividing those 15 ceremonies into, gosh, what would be safe? Let's say 50 students, plus 2 guests? So that's a socially distanced gathering of 150 people. That would require 140 ceremonies. I guess each would be shorter, so you could squeeze in 4 sessions per day.

So you'd be looking at 35 days of ceremonies - that's 7 weeks' worth.

UK students can stuff it, as long as the money comes in from abroad.

Massive generalisation.

And your DC's education is actually subsidised (ie partially paid for) by overseas students.

If you want to see the real cost of your DC"s degree, look at the O/S fee.

It’s the inconsistency going forward that rankles. Some unis are making decisions for sept based on a worse case scenario that now seems out of step with the uk roadmap.

I have lecturer friends who individually say they prefer working at home and have told their unis that. I hope students are aware and are pushing back for what they want. My dd has not been asked about f2f teaching for sept. Decisions at her uni (I can’t speak for all!) are being made without student input. It shows how low priority they are compared to permanent staff, future plans etc. Of course some parents on here are angry.

It’s really unfortunate and not what anyone wants but it’s also really unfair to blame uni staff for this. I agree more clarity would be nice, but a lot of that is due to unis not knowing exactly what they will and won’t be able to do yet.

This.

And universities are now subject to consumer law. What a university announces publicly has legal standing. So generally, universities are being cautious because senior management teams just don't know. The Government roadmap out of the lockdown is contingent, and only partially guided by the best public health & scientific advice. The Government is also driven by public opinion and a short term interest in votes (wasn't Johnson saying almost up to the January announcement of lockdown that he'd rather see the bodies piled up in the streets than have another lockdown?)

Universities have access to the actual real scientific advice (my place has had people working on nationally networked C19 research since last year).

I really don't think it's a good argument to say "Well, they did X in the schools" - the way this Government managed re-opening schools was a shambles and teachers were hung out to dry. And individual universities have a much more diverse and larger workforce & student body than individual schools, so the individual practices of each aren't a valid comparison.

No one thinks that students dont matter but in practice, universities are not schools etc but enterprises that are big enough to count as a small town. My uni has over 40,00 students and tens of thousands of staff. They are big and managing that many people through a pandemic is very very complex. They do have access to the best brains but they also have conflicting agendas/demands. But the key thing is they are not public/state institutions - multiple governments killed that. So all these complaints are fine and unis do take them all on board as they have a business to run but if certain things are not happening trust me it's not because they havent thought about it but because it conflicts with some other priorities or is simply not a priority.

No university is planning on having online only teaching next year. The most is blended learning with some online content that has been decided works for a particular discipline/university. Students are consulted but we are also teaching professionals and base our teaching decisions on pedagogical research and what is possible/practical next year.

Yes, a lot of scientists do assume social distincing will be brought in inext year though everyone will be happy if it isnt. Plus especially the big/top unis have to cater for a very very large international student community many of whom are from say India. Now would the Brits really be happy to have literally thousands of Indian students come back this month for some f2f teaching. That also explains different policies across unis - some uis cater mainly for local students, other UK based students and others, like my own cater as much for International students as Uk based one. The two main markets for us are India (do you want them to come here right now) and China (they are still a bit concerned about the UK though thats getting better but most are not vaccinated).

To those who say that students will vote with their feet - that's clearly not the case. Top RG (LSE/Oxbridge etc) have always had the worst performance for teaching but students still flog. In my limited but personal experience teaching at Oxford (for me) was abysmal - do students care, not really because it's got the rep and will get you the job.

Quite a few academics have genuinely tried to engage with the myriad of questions asked on this thread - we really have. We are not defensive but many of us have spend decades in the hgiher education sector and are trying to give an honest reading of this and next year. Dont shoot the messengers

No one thinks that students dont matter but in practice, universities are not schools etc but enterprises that are big enough to count as a small town. My uni has over 40,00 students and tens of thousands of staff. They are big and managing that many people through a pandemic is very very complex. They do have access to the best brains but they also have conflicting agendas/demands. But the key thing is they are not public/state institutions - multiple governments killed that. So all these complaints are fine and unis do take them all on board as they have a business to run but if certain things are not happening trust me it's not because they havent thought about it but because it conflicts with some other priorities or is simply not a priority.

This is a really key point. Universities don't exist just to teach UG students and the reality is that for some places they won't be the priority. In my faculty it is Post Grads that keep us afloat and pretty much all of our research and external funding is linked to PG courses so that tends to be our priority.
That doesn't mean we don't care about UG students or courses but we wouldn't exist as faculty if they were our main focus.

@Intoair that is interesting what does subject to consumer law mean. Would unis be held up to account if they promised blended learning including face to face and then failed to deliver . Is that what you mean
If so I can see Uni hesitancy but am also wondering wether there are claims to be made this year.(not by me!)
Or is it a more generic commitment to educate using resources available in which case why are unis worried promise best scenario face to face revert to worst if needed. Students are not stupid they have been subject to disruption for the last year because of the pandemic they are prepared for change.
Also I do wonder if unis are really interested in following scientific advise as opposed to government why they condoned the movement of students to halls of residence last year which was one of the biggest contributors to covid surge . Sage and therefore unis definately knew about this . They could have insisted on online for everyone for at least one term not reopened halls of residence and made students stay where they were . But I think we all know the answer to this one. £££ and where their line will be drawn this year big lectures hall no!, crowded hall of residence, student union, yes!
I agree lecturers have taken a lot of the flak on this thread and I know it is not their fault for a lot of parental frustration my gripe generally is with uni management which seems to change the narrative to suit their agenda and there is definitely an agenda for online despite covid not because of it for a few universities (in my opinion!) the problem is they are just not publicly declaring it giving consumers the option to make an informed choice

Would unis be held up to account if they promised blended learning including face to face and then failed to deliver . Is that what you mean

It is exactly this. CMA is a BIG deal at universities - If we promise something we have to deliver it unless we have very good reasons not to. During the last year we have been working under emergency covid regs which have given us a degree of flexibility but assuming they will no longer be in place for next year we need to be careful what we are promising.
The problem is, we don't know for definite what we can do yet. It's still speculative.

@FHOJfinf18 you are right about RG status . My Dd chose her uni last year and was influenced by league tables and RG status. BUT that was because all Unis offered similar structures (F2F lectures seminars etc)
If I was advising my DD now I would say rip up the rule book, ignore league tables , RG status etc look at what this uni has done for its students this year , how flexible is it, what is its future agenda , online priority, , did it reimburse halls of residence fees, which Uni do you believe will ultimately teach you best (last year I assumed this was a level playing field), what was the quality of online teaching, does it have video lecture capture. There are variables in play now which were never on my agenda last year
But as I have said upthread my Dd ultimately cares about the teaching she is doing a vocational degree it is not about the degree certificate. Other students have different agendas and RG status will still have a bearing. This is a massive opportunity I believe for post 92 unis to take some control of the uni market by differentiating themselves and pushing F2F where practical and safe . My Dd would have been influenced by this and she may not have taken up her RG place.

Yes to give an example -- we want to reduce the workload in our modules by a small amount, in response to student feedback, and we have to go through about 20 levels of bureaucracy to do so, because it would mean what we do in practice would not exactly match what our published module descriptions say.

It is really incredible how legalistic and bureaucratised and micro-managed universities have become, which also helps explain why they are being so cautious.

No Uni will face legal action for being unable to provide services that they aren't allowed to provide by the law in force when it is due to be provided.

If a Uni promised F2F teaching/lectures etc in September, but then couldn't provide it because of newly introduced Covid restrictions, then they're be free from legal action as long as they couldn't provide the services BECAUSE of the restrictions in place.

They have no defence if the go over and above the restrictions or if they promise but fail to deliver when there are no restrictions.

All they need to do is be honest and open about their plans. Trouble is, as we saw last Summer, and starting to see this Summer, they're being deliberately vague.

Universities generally are large and very bureaucratic institutions and making changes takes a great deal of time and administration.

As far as I am aware, there is no course where I work that can announce that in September they are going to change to, e.g. online only lectures, for reasons of pedagogic preference rather than national emergency.

They can't do this because to make that change they have to have their course revalidated to ensure it meets the standards required and the needs of the students.

To get the course revalidated they have to show there is student demand for this new way of teaching with actual evidence collected from students. They have to explain and justify why their proposed new methods are suitable, how they will meet the course aims and deliver appropriate learning outcomes, how they fit with university and national benchmarks and so on.

Once a course has produced their new proposal and completed the mountain of paperwork associated with it, it has to pass through scrutiny by a departmental committee, then a university committee and then another university committee composed of some of the most senior people in the university.

At each stage the proposal can be returned to the proposers with requests for change, or it can simply be rejected.

If everyone is not ridiculously busy with other things (which they are), it will take a month or two to gather evidence to complete the proposal documentation. If everyone really pulls out all the stops to get the proposal through it will take another couple of months to pass through the scrutiny committees. In practice at the moment it will probably take longer.

Only once all this is complete are the course and the university allowed to say 'this is how the course will be run'. This process has to be completed for both legal reasons and to maintain standards across the sector.

In normal times, which we hope to be in by September, it is very much not the case that an individual lecture or a whole university can just one day decide that they quite like teaching online and the next day announce to the world that this is what is going to happen from now on.