Students full return to campus

[DoNotBringLulu]

This came up on my Facebook feed:

www.theguardian.com/education/2021/apr/13/university-campuses-in-england-will-not-reopen-until-mid-may

If this is true, Boris et al have some explaining to do.

@titchy

Unions should be supporting you all in this.

UCU are shit.

My son signed up for one thing and got another, that seems acceptable as a one off but not in the future.

I agree, but until the pandemic is over, or at least the emergency legislation has ended, we cannot make any guarantees at all. The regulator and CMA would have a field day.

As I said, most unis are planning a blended approach where if they can teach in person they will, but with online as a back up in case we're still on the lockdown roundabout, or for those students who find it difficult to attend solely in person.

What % of undergrads are mature?

I feel that ‘some students prefer it all online’ is wheeled out too readily. If that is the majority view then why have campuses?!

Excluding the OU, just over 50% of undergrads are mature.

I don't think the majority do prefer it ALL online. Some do obviously, and the OU and one or two other provider exist to serve those students (incidentally - there are massive numbers studying at the OU!), but mature students like the flexibility of not having to be on campus every Monday at 9.00, but being able to watch the lecture when they're back from the school run for example. Most do appreciate some sort of in person contact though, and the discussions that you can have with peers and lecturers in person that you can't on collaborate.

Wow had no idea it was 50%!

@IrmaFayLear

The university system here sells itself to young people as being an experience as well as a means of obtaining a degree. Brochures of halls of residences, sporting facilities, grinning students socialising....

It may well be perfectly practicable to deliver most degrees online. It may suit some students and many staff to be online. But as others have said, this needs to be transparent . The last year was a bolt from the blue and it has been a crap deal for current students, but going forward universities must offer what it says on the tin.

By all means be all online... but don’t be surprised when you enrol three students and find your job is a casualty.

Yes this ^^ unis need to be transparent ahead of sept so students of all ages can choose. I’d guess mature students for example would investigate other online providers if that was the case for their chosen course

The vast majority of undergraduates going to university at 18 or 19 aren't going just to study. They're going to socialise, to live away from home, to play sport, to act or sing or edit newspapers or whatever they want to do. My younger son has had a terribly disrupted experience, with no face to face teaching since last March. He has some tutorials alone so has no one to discuss those subjects with. And he has no social life to help him balance his academic anxiety. I feel so angry on his behalf at this stage; I think the needs of these young people have been put at the bottom of the heap.

According to this link it’s only 34% in 19/20, 50% of post grads which you would expect

commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8809

Also with regard to mature students bear in mind that ‘mature’ is anyone starting over 21. Also there are some universities with very high numbers for example Anglia Ruskin or the OU and also many newer universities for example Suffolk . But others who have much lower levels.

@IrmaFayLear

Of course I understand that nothing can be guaranteed and who knows what might happen, but there seem to be a fair few HE people saying “Oh, online works very well” or “It suits the disabled” (does it?!?) or “It suits mature students/mums doing school runs” which seems to me to be insidiously introducing online provision by justifying it without evidence from the actual students.

Saying online works well for some people is by no means saying it works well for all people or that universities want to go completely online. I don't know how much more clearly I can say that.

Lucky you if you can't imagine a situation where the option to take classes online would be the difference between getting a degree or not. Personally I'm very happy we are moving to a system where most people do f2f but there is a great pathway for online provision as well, if students want it.

I was just coming on to say that according to Office for Students stats, of the "mature" students half of them are in 21-24 age bracket. So although not school leavers they're still young people, likely without too many other responsibilities yet

The other thing of course is that many people on low incomes or in rural areas simply do not have adequate internet to fully access online offerings .

Whilst I take the point that saying it’s good for some does not mean it’s good for all there does seem a bit of creep in university administration towards saying that online is good for all and using that as justification to offer less f2f in the medium to long run. It’s the thin end of the wedge. I completely understand that masked face to face is the worst of all worlds

@wooliewoo

I was just coming on to say that according to Office for Students stats, of the "mature" students half of them are in 21-24 age bracket. So although not school leavers they're still young people, likely without too many other responsibilities yet

Oh right so not ‘needing’ to be at home/online for many of them

Yes also good point about some unis being more focused towards over 21s than others

@wooliewoo

I was just coming on to say that according to Office for Students stats, of the "mature" students half of them are in 21-24 age bracket. So although not school leavers they're still young people, likely without too many other responsibilities yet

I'd bet a good proportion are working (or furloughed...) or have kids though.

I absolutely agree we need to be vigilant that universities don't try to exploit the situation. I just don't think it's likely that they will try to go completely or mostly online. They also make a lot of ancillary income from having students on campus. Not to mention the reputational and recruitment issues that would come from going too far online.

@GlencoraP

The other thing of course is that many people on low incomes or in rural areas simply do not have adequate internet to fully access online offerings .

Whilst I take the point that saying it’s good for some does not mean it’s good for all there does seem a bit of creep in university administration towards saying that online is good for all and using that as justification to offer less f2f in the medium to long run. It’s the thin end of the wedge. I completely understand that masked face to face is the worst of all worlds

No one at all is saying it's good for all. How many times do we have to say that

I'm a mature student, 43 with 2 dcs and a busy home life. I've had 2 f2f sessions this year. I would have preferred a lot more, regardless of school runs etc. I was prepared to use childcare, being at uni for a lecture would have meant time out of the house to study and to socialise. While uni for me wasn't about the experience I would have liked to have actually experienced campus beyond 2 45 minute lectures. I'd like to say that the online learning is good, it probably is but I have no comparison because its my first year.

It disgusting the way students have been treated. 9.2k for online lectures, no study space, no library, no using the buildings, no student union facilities, no sports facilities or anything.

@titchy that’s exactly what I am saying too , I just wanted to make it clear that I didn’t think anyone was saying that . Seems I wasn’t very clear

Hmmm, I am somewhat alarmed by MeltsAway’s post: that staff really want to return.... but it must be safe , and then she goes on to mention colds and flu!!!! Fgs, no one likes a stinking cold, let alone a 5* flu, but you can’t mitigate against ever becoming ill or preventing large numbers of students going out if they are sniffling.

It is a huge leap from being afraid of a new dangerous virus to suggesting that colds make for an unsafe working environment...

As for disabled students - in my experience those who are disabled love being able to leave home and have a good experience of independence and meet other young people. It actually makes me that they would be used as an excuse for online provision.

It disgusting the way students have been treated. 9.2k for online lectures, no study space, no library, no using the buildings, no student union facilities, no sports facilities or anything

We're in a global pandemic; the laws of the UK constrain us. It is not the universities' doing. Blame the government - but even then, what is anyone supposed to do?

There really is a lot of misplaced anger and resentment here. And when I've had undergrads swearing at me in online teaching, and acting in hugely disrespectful ways, I kind of wonder where that's coming from.

The thread on how much f2f people have had also in this section has some very mixed experiences .

We are unable to turn cameras on in lectures and seminars because the software we use cannot handle the bandwidth this definitely needs to be sorted out before next year if online is to continue

As for disabled students - in my experience those who are disabled love being able to leave home and have a good experience of independence and meet other young people. It actually makes me angry that they would be used as an excuse for online provision.

Well it makes me angry that people would rather deny people the opportunity to study because they have an unwarranted fear that universities will go completely online.

As I said, I teach on an online programme. Over the years I have taught many students who genuinely could not have done a degree if they did not have access to an online programme. Students who are frequently in and out of hospital, students with severe mental health issues, full-time carers, women with no childcare options.

Should we really tell people in these situations they should just give up on their dreams of studying because of their conditions or situations? Personally I'm happy that universities are becoming more accessible to a wider range of students.

Ideally students should be able to choose f2f or online, that is what my department is working toward and I hope it becomes the new norm.

At the end of the day the students just want what they signed up for, though some seem to fare better than others. My Y2 DS had just half of his 1st year as normal, the other half being written off with no further study or tuition, yet he was expected to pay for 3 terms accommodation. In his 2nd year he had 2 or 3 f2f seminars (and caught covid) but stayed in his student flat until Christmas, with everything online. He still has to pay 2 more lots of rent, despite being mostly at home. Some aspects of online work quite well for him, as he is quite lazy and quite happy to attend from his bed, then go back to sleep. However, he is not getting a fully rounded experience and has not been able to find a work placement for next year.

My 4th year DD, on the other hand, has been massively disadvantaged by the pandemic and the resulting issues, and it has really affected her mental health. Her year abroad was cut short, her uni didn't provide any work from March to September of her 3rd year, and she has had so little input and support this year from her university that she has elected to go part time and do some of it next year in the hope that she will get a richer experience.

I am beyond exasperated by it all.

As for disabled students - in my experience those who are disabled love being able to leave home and have a good experience of independence and meet other young people. It actually makes me that they would be used as an excuse for online provision.

It's not an excuse Many of our students are CEV and would not have been able to access learning of it wasn't online. Many are scared that despite being vaccinated they are still vulnerable and many actively want the option of online. Many find tube travel difficult. Many worry about crowds.

Not all obviously, a lot actively want to return to in person, and hopefully they will.

But don't say disabled people love being able to leave home, as if they are one amorphous being who all think and feel the same. They are not.

@dreamingbohemian

I absolutely agree we need to be vigilant that universities don't try to exploit the situation. I just don't think it's likely that they will try to go completely or mostly online. They also make a lot of ancillary income from having students on campus. Not to mention the reputational and recruitment issues that would come from going too far online.

I hope so. All those jobs in catering, bars, accom etc are important in the communities

@Ontopofthesunset

The vast majority of undergraduates going to university at 18 or 19 aren't going just to study. They're going to socialise, to live away from home, to play sport, to act or sing or edit newspapers or whatever they want to do. My younger son has had a terribly disrupted experience, with no face to face teaching since last March. He has some tutorials alone so has no one to discuss those subjects with. And he has no social life to help him balance his academic anxiety. I feel so angry on his behalf at this stage; I think the needs of these young people have been put at the bottom of the heap.

I wholeheartedly agree. It's been a disaster for my first year daughter too and I feel utterly furious and let down on her behalf. And her halls of residence are refusing to refund.....

I hope so. All those jobs in catering, bars, accom etc are important in the communities

Definitely. Universities are one of the biggest, if not the biggest employer in most towns and cities. (Generally only hospitals and council employ more people locally.)

But all of you getting angry it's a global PANDEMIC What do you think should have happened????

Please, instead of getting angry try to offer some constructive comments. And be prepared to accept that - you know - there's a global pandemic, and a lot of people's lives have been extremely seriously disrupted because of it (disrupted to the point of death).

I live in a fairly rural university country town. We had a fairly low rate of infection. Until late September 2020 when the crowds of students, clearly disrespectful of social distancing and household non-mixing requirements meant that the infection rates tripled. So, that's the impact that returning students had on my town.

Yes, we have to learn to live with this damned disease, but getting angry with universities because of a global pandemic and national laws about what may & may not be done, is not productive.

And it has led to abuse & harassment of university staff (well, mew and my colleagues, at any rate, and I doubt that our experiences are unique). Think about what you're modelling for your DC - because from my POV, there has some particularly underwhelming parent role-modelling, if attitudes & behaviour of a significant minority of the undergrads I teach is anything to go by.

After paying Hall fees my child has £71 per term
BUT
In the autumn term
they were shut in their flat not allowed to socialise with anybody
In the spring term
have not been within 150 miles of the campus
In the summer term
what

My child is doing a course which includes WEEKLY practicals and WEEKLY field work
NONE OF WHICH they have had
so they will be paying £9250 plus 6% compound interest
for online lectures and reading online papers

NOTHING online replaces the practical parts of the course

Blimey, I left for a few hours (really did need to mark something) and this has all turned a bit nasty ! What did I miss 😳
Maybe let's not focus on what HAS happened and what can now happen moving forward. All back to normal from September (barring nasty variants) as everyone vaccinated. This seems to be what the majority of students want & will certain what the new first years will want, Be nice if some stuff catch up stuff could be made available for students after May 12th, even if exams done. Surely some extra labs or tutorials or seminars could be run f2f. We are doing this in school once years 11 & 13 have gone.
And I did laugh a little at people complaining about masked teaching. Assume no one on here has children at secondary school. As we make it work every day of the week, with much younger students. Yes it's a pain but it's possible.
My child can go to a nightclub in June, attend a football match, go to Reading festival. But can't meet her tutor in person. Makes no sense at all.