Students full return to campus

[DoNotBringLulu]

This came up on my Facebook feed:

www.theguardian.com/education/2021/apr/13/university-campuses-in-england-will-not-reopen-until-mid-may

If this is true, Boris et al have some explaining to do.

@titchy

As an aside, don't assume all students want 100% in person. The majority of students aren't 18 year olds straight from school and many have appreciated the flexibility of online.

@titchy I agree with that but it's important in the future that there's full transparency before committing to a course.

My son signed up for one thing and got another, that seems acceptable as a one off but not in the future.

@titchy

If Unis came out, as a group, via VCs and said from September things will be back to as normal as we can, with f2f guaranteed for 50% minimum then students could have something to look forward to

No one can promise anything though. We might be in the middle of wave 3 and everything locked down again.

Most institutions I'm aware of are planning for in-person, on-line and blended next year so we can react to whatever gets thrown at us.

It's been a bugger this, it really has. The decision for in person teaching not to resume till 17 May came out yesterday. Yesterday! No mention of uni teaching till then. Completely forgotten by Gov. blamed by parents for their offsprings experience, blamed by the public for not refunding fees. Staff trying to deliver teaching at the same time as home schooling. IT colleagues working 20 hour days to make sure the tech works. Library staff disinfecting and posting resources. Unis paying for laptops and dongles for students who can't afford them. Paying to make campuses covid-secure. Organising lateral flow testing. 2% of our income we've spend as a direct result of Covid. And we weren't making a surplus!

And universities are teaching our future scientists who will develop future pandemic vaccines, future HCPs. Per student unit of income down by 20%, costs up due to increased NI and more to come in extra employer pension conts.

I know it's been crap for students. I have two - both doing STEM but on-line. We know and we sympathise and we're doing our best. But this isn't of our making.

We're the good guys here and we're struggling.

Unions should be supporting you all in this.

What % of undergrads are mature?

I feel that ‘some students prefer it all online’ is wheeled out too readily. If that is the majority view then why have campuses?!

commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8809/

This suggests approx a quarter (of home students) in 2020, though it does include all undergraduates including places like The Open University. So presumably most home entrants are under 21y when they start.

Dd has said all along she'd rather have f2f for the majority of her university sessions. Her friends appear to feel the same. And after so long they are all definitely fed up of it all being online.

What's been even worse has been that placements have also been online. How on earth do you really learn to become a teacher with a virtual teaching practise?!?

@Abraxan

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8809/

This suggests approx a quarter (of home students) in 2020, though it does include all undergraduates including places like The Open University. So presumably most home entrants are under 21y when they start.

Dd has said all along she'd rather have f2f for the majority of her university sessions. Her friends appear to feel the same. And after so long they are all definitely fed up of it all being online.

What's been even worse has been that placements have also been online. How on earth do you really learn to become a teacher with a virtual teaching practise?!?

I think the fig needs to take out open uni? That has huge numbers which will skew the situation.

Unions should be supporting you all in this.

UCU are shit.

My son signed up for one thing and got another, that seems acceptable as a one off but not in the future.

I agree, but until the pandemic is over, or at least the emergency legislation has ended, we cannot make any guarantees at all. The regulator and CMA would have a field day.

As I said, most unis are planning a blended approach where if they can teach in person they will, but with online as a back up in case we're still on the lockdown roundabout, or for those students who find it difficult to attend solely in person.

What % of undergrads are mature?

I feel that ‘some students prefer it all online’ is wheeled out too readily. If that is the majority view then why have campuses?!

Excluding the OU, just over 50% of undergrads are mature.

I don't think the majority do prefer it ALL online. Some do obviously, and the OU and one or two other provider exist to serve those students (incidentally - there are massive numbers studying at the OU!), but mature students like the flexibility of not having to be on campus every Monday at 9.00, but being able to watch the lecture when they're back from the school run for example. Most do appreciate some sort of in person contact though, and the discussions that you can have with peers and lecturers in person that you can't on collaborate.

No one is saying the majority of students prefer online, but universities are (rightly!) trying to make progress on inclusion, on taking into consideration the needs of all students. It is not just about mature students, we have a large number of students with physical impairments (temporary or permanent) and mental health issues that make it difficult for them to come to campus consistently. That doesn't mean everyone should learn online, but it is worth noting the benefits of online for some students.

In my own department our goal is to make all classes blended, so that students can choose whether to take them f2f or online. It will take a couple years but it's entirely doable (for our discipline).

@Abraxan

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-8809/

This suggests approx a quarter (of home students) in 2020, though it does include all undergraduates including places like The Open University. So presumably most home entrants are under 21y when they start.

Dd has said all along she'd rather have f2f for the majority of her university sessions. Her friends appear to feel the same. And after so long they are all definitely fed up of it all being online.

What's been even worse has been that placements have also been online. How on earth do you really learn to become a teacher with a virtual teaching practise?!?

That's full time only - don't forget part time as well!

I think the fig needs to take out open uni? That has huge numbers which will skew the situation.

OU doesn't have any full time students so they won't be skewing that figure.

@titchy

I think the fig needs to take out open uni? That has huge numbers which will skew the situation.

OU doesn't have any full time students so they won't be skewing that figure.

OU is shown on the graph linked to the data on the link. So I assume it has been included in at least some of the figures given.

The university system here sells itself to young people as being an experience as well as a means of obtaining a degree. Brochures of halls of residences, sporting facilities, grinning students socialising....

It may well be perfectly practicable to deliver most degrees online. It may suit some students and many staff to be online. But as others have said, this needs to be transparent . The last year was a bolt from the blue and it has been a crap deal for current students, but going forward universities must offer what it says on the tin.

By all means be all online... but don’t be surprised when you enrol three students and find your job is a casualty.

OU is shown on the graph linked to the data on the link. So I assume it has been included in at least some of the figures given.

It's included in the number of ALL students which is what that graph shows, not in the number of full
Time students - so the FT percentage isn't skewed by the OU.

But as others have said, this needs to be transparent .

But it can't be yet can it? This time last year we all assumed by the Autumn things would be back to normal. And they clearly weren't. No one would want to put their neck on the line now and say categorically everything will be normal this Autumn.

Everyone would like it to be so, and everyone is planning for that, but we cannot guarantee anything.

The indications are that our vaccine roll out and lockdowns have been successful, and I'm quite optimistic my youngest's final year will be spend physically in lecture theatres and labs. But I'm sure you understand no guarantees are possible.

@IrmaFayLear

The university system here sells itself to young people as being an experience as well as a means of obtaining a degree. Brochures of halls of residences, sporting facilities, grinning students socialising....

It may well be perfectly practicable to deliver most degrees online. It may suit some students and many staff to be online. But as others have said, this needs to be transparent . The last year was a bolt from the blue and it has been a crap deal for current students, but going forward universities must offer what it says on the tin.

By all means be all online... but don’t be surprised when you enrol three students and find your job is a casualty.

Literally no one is saying they want to be all online, all the time. That is never going to happen.

Barring any new waves, things should largely be back to normal next year. But universities can't guarantee anything. If there is another wave and the government shuts things down again, what can universities do?

To be clear, I hold universities in total contempt for what they did last summer, telling students to come to campus when they knew f2f was not going to happen.

But if things are okay this September and everyone goes back, and then it turns out in January they have to shut down again, there is not much universities can do.

Of course I understand that nothing can be guaranteed and who knows what might happen, but there seem to be a fair few HE people saying “Oh, online works very well” or “It suits the disabled” (does it?!?) or “It suits mature students/mums doing school runs” which seems to me to be insidiously introducing online provision by justifying it without evidence from the actual students.

@IrmaFayLear

Of course I understand that nothing can be guaranteed and who knows what might happen, but there seem to be a fair few HE people saying “Oh, online works very well” or “It suits the disabled” (does it?!?) or “It suits mature students/mums doing school runs” which seems to me to be insidiously introducing online provision by justifying it without evidence from the actual students.

If you go back and read the posts again, the poster is clearly talking about blended learning: f2f for some, online for others, with the flexibility of recorded lectures that they can catch up with when it suits them. We are planning similar for next year, with students able to choose whether they take online or f2f modules.

My son is due to be abroad next year ( language course) uni are currently saying that the most likely outcome is that next year they will stay at home ( not even on campus) and be taught online by foreign uni. If that happens he will have done 2 years at uni learning a language from scratch without ever speaking to anyone - if that happens I think he will drop out.

@IrmaFayLear

Of course I understand that nothing can be guaranteed and who knows what might happen, but there seem to be a fair few HE people saying “Oh, online works very well” or “It suits the disabled” (does it?!?) or “It suits mature students/mums doing school runs” which seems to me to be insidiously introducing online provision by justifying it without evidence from the actual students.

We've been surveying our students monthly asking what they want, what we could do better etc. So we have been engaging. But we deliver to a wide range of students, not just 18 year old first years in halls. (And yes, students with mobility issues do find online easier, students who are CEV are happier with online - why is that so hard to believe?).

We won't stick to solely online if we don't have to - that I can guarantee. I don't know any lecturer who prefers delivering to a screen where everyone has their video turned off.

But we'd be daft not to pick out the best bits of the provision we've been delivering this year and use it again. And offering flexibility is undoubtedly something we're all better at now, so students can attend in person if they want, but those who cannot for whatever reason don't have to miss out and try and catch up by themselves. The resources will exist to enable them to do that.

That said I do wonder if 18 year olds are as wedded to in person teaching as their parents think they are. I'm sure a lot would be happy with mainly online as long as they could socialise with their peers! Not that they'd admit that to mum and dad

Many universities have refunded accommodation fees. In each case that is many millions of pounds. Some universities are on the brink of collapse. But I suspect that is the whole point

Yes @GCAcademic - we've refunded millions in university-managed accommodation, and further millions in extra staff to assist digital & online teaching (although nothing on permanent staff in terms of our home "offices"). And that's not counting the huge amount we're working over our contracted hours to a) teach online; or b) teach in a safe socially-distanced way - 10 students in rooms meant for 40, means you have to teach that class 4 times, rather than once.

But then I hear from some CEV students of mine just how many students were pretty dismissive - or downright ignoring - of COVID safety. I really don't want to be in a closed room under pre-COVID conditions with students who are disrespectful of others' safety.

I do worry about the academic rigour of wholely online though . So many skills especially in arts subjects are gained from live discussion, testing your argument, learning how to research a topic not just using a set reading list etc . So many students and teachers seem to be complaining of silent tutorials with minimal interaction and reading lists limited to what’s available online.

And everything @titchy says. Interestingly, I think she and I work in very different areas, but our departments/universities are doing pretty much the same thing.

I wonder about students missing face to face - given the ways in which we had to keep on their cases in terms of attendance & absence pre-COVID, I just wonder ... and I work in a discipline & university that's pretty competitive to get into, for which applicants stress in interview (we still interview) how absolutely passionate they are about the subject. And still we spend a fair bit of time chasing them actually to attend seminars and practicals.

I'm hoping that when we go back to face to face in September, I will never again have to chase a student for not attending or participating. But I'm not going to bet on it.

I also worry that the move to online my harm social mobility and diversity because physical presence at University will become the preserve of those wealthy enough to afford the ‘luxury’ of living away from home , whilst many first generation students will opt for the cheaper option of remote learning from home.

It very much depends on the subject. My son (BSc, finished last year) had a fair number of field trips, even the weekend university started in the countryside so the whole group could bond and he had more friends on his course than his twin on a BA (both were at Bristol U) who before covid liked to "attend" some lectures after (they were all recorded except one lecturer who refused to press the record button).

What in many subjects with few lectures students need is a right to go into their rooms and attend clubs and societies and meet people and take risks and get drunk and have sex or attend church events or whatever their hobbies are. It is the refusal to let first years back into college or halls which has been so destructive of the experience for first years.

I would have preferred the universities as a group taking immediate court action by way of injunctions right back in April 2020 rather than in effect giving the impression -0 great we will follow what the state says to the letter and it may not be so bad for us if people are at home. I wanted to see university activism against the oppressive CV19 legislation but I saw none of it from the universities - just instead they went along with it.

I would like them to be a the forefront of challenging the laws eg saying all students are welcome back after Easter 2021 and let the state sue us if it disagrees for example. We the universities are standing up to the state on the grounds of human rights and we put the young above the old.

Look, most academics I know really really want to return to in person teaching. I do. But it has to be safe - for CEV students & staff. And students who feel they aren't vulnerable need to be more respectful of their peers & university staff who are.

I hope that even when we're all vaccinated, we still retain some practices that we've learned over this last year. Staying home if you ave a viral infection that is communicable - no more of this "It's just a cold" and sneezing or coughing all over other people. Or wearing a mask if you must mingle. Respect for others' health. No more Freshers' flu - it's not just freshers who are infected and I'm sick of having to take oral steroids each year because an infected student has been careless and passed a viral infection onto me - I get very ill. Most of my colleagues experience severe viral illness - cold or flu - at least once during the teaching year, and the nature of our work makes it almost impossible to take sick leave during the teaching term.

And having online possibilities will help with this. Students can isolate when they're ill with a cold or other viral infection, or wear a mask.

I think we shouldn't be so sanguine about the level of fatalities from "ordinary" flu in pre-COVID times. Let's use the learning from this ast year, and ensure we all stay healthier.

@GlencoraP

I also worry that the move to online my harm social mobility and diversity because physical presence at University will become the preserve of those wealthy enough to afford the ‘luxury’ of living away from home , whilst many first generation students will opt for the cheaper option of remote learning from home.

In the long term, I agree (I teach an arts subject). However, I had far worse outcomes from mask-to-mask teaching in the autumn term than I did from online teaching in the spring. We simply could not have prolonged discussion with students seated two meters apart wearing masks and when I came to mark their work I could really see the impact of that lack of discussion time. I was quite annoyed at the time because the university gave us some training that explicitly acknowledged we'd not be able to hear each other and that we'd have to modify our teaching accordingly. Well, you can't simply dispense with discussion in an arts seminar, it's pretty fundamental! The priority was clearly the social rather than educational experience, and we just had to go along with this. Online, the students were able to discuss without many impediments - I'm marking their essays now (or, rather, procrastinating) and they as good as any I've marked in the past. Obviously the preference is for non-distanced, in-person teaching, but if it's a choice between socially-distanced or online, the latter had better outcomes for my department.

I also worry that the move to online my harm social mobility and diversity because physical presence at University will become the preserve of those wealthy enough to afford the ‘luxury’ of living away from home , whilst many first generation students will opt for the cheaper option of remote learning from home.

It may do, but the answer to that isn't to stop universities offering flexibility (which is what it will be, not a move to online). Some students will chose to study remotely for reasons other than financial.