Students full return to campus

[DoNotBringLulu]

This came up on my Facebook feed:

www.theguardian.com/education/2021/apr/13/university-campuses-in-england-will-not-reopen-until-mid-may

If this is true, Boris et al have some explaining to do.

@TheMerrickBoy thank you for at least trying. It's not the teaching they probably wanted, it was meeting someone, anyone on their course. It has been so isolating and lonely.

@mumsneedwine

One thing you might all be able to help with. My DD's friend now has a major eye issue from being on line so much and has been told to stay off a screen. But she can't as everything, including her exams, is on there. Who should she contact because she'd be fine if all in person as normal but going to struggle if can't see the screen. She wants to do her exams on paper. DD has much worse eyesight now than 12 months ago, due to over use of screen. I think this is going to be a major issue if things continue on line next year - what about those who can't access that ? Thanks.

I guess disability services - but if she needs to stay off a screen entirely then I would imagine this would be a problem however much on campus teaching there is next year, as email and reading etc will still be on screen whatever?

If she needs to do exams on paper then I would look at getting a specific plan in place (different institutions will have different names for these, so don't want to mislead by saying what ours are called, but there'll be an equivalent) so that this is documented as an accessibility requirement for her.

I didn't say you said these things @mumsneedwine, I asked if that's what you think. Because there is a whole thread of explanations for why it's not been easy or possible to do f2f and you are still asking why we cannot do f2f like you do. I'm glad to hear you don't think we're being lazy though : )

If any of your students are completely allergic to online learning of any kind, then I would honestly tell them to wait a year. If they would be happy having the vast majority f2f but perhaps some online elements, they should be fine (barring a new wave).

I would advise them though to write directly to their departments and ask them about next year because every university and every department will be proceeding differently. They might want to say something in the email like, If it is not yet possible to confirm next year's arrangements, can you tell me when you expect to have more information? And then write back again.

See if there is anything in the department website about student reps or student societies, don't be afraid to email current students about their experience. They may not reply but it can't hurt to ask. Everyone understands it's a very difficult decision that they have to make.

I don't live near the school I teach at and I am doing on line and f2f at the same time. Not sure why Uni staff can't do this too - half in lecture theatre, half at home (as I keep being told lots can't be there or like being at home this should work fine).

I'm sure this has been answered at least once before. We have to offer all students the same thing. Who decides who stays at home?

In any case, half in a lecture theatre won't work. It's about 16% if want to maintain the required 2m social distancing. So, now you have 16% f2f and 84% at home.

Perhaps it would help you understand the problems we have if you looked at this...

educationspaceconsultancy.com/how-would-1m-social-distancing-affect-teaching-room-capacity/

@mumsneedwine

One thing you might all be able to help with. My DD's friend now has a major eye issue from being on line so much and has been told to stay off a screen. But she can't as everything, including her exams, is on there. Who should she contact because she'd be fine if all in person as normal but going to struggle if can't see the screen. She wants to do her exams on paper. DD has much worse eyesight now than 12 months ago, due to over use of screen. I think this is going to be a major issue if things continue on line next year - what about those who can't access that ? Thanks.

She should definitely contact whoever in her department handles extensions/accessibility arrangements and ask what can be done. It will help if she has something official saying she needs to stay off-screen.

Thanks for the advice. I'll tell her to contact disability people at Uni (her faculty have I'm afraid been useless). She has medical evidence and her consultant has written to the Uni - he was has been surprised quite how many young people he has seen with eye strain issues. They have caused permanent damage and he is concerned how much of this is going to come to light in the next 12 months. I'm getting DDs eyes scanned to try and prevent it happening, but would never occurred to me if not for her poor friend.
And I've told my year 13s they should not expect everything to be on line. Several already decided not to go in 2022 so at least they can make an informed decision.

The problem with this is that a solution has to be found, there is no option not to. Realistically it will probably be 5 years before this pandemic burns itself out, if the government and universities go with reducing person to person f2f to the bare minimum next year there will be a cohort graduating who will have received more than 50% of their degree teaching remotely, and that’s not taking into account the fact that this cohort was the one most affected by the strikes. The following year will not be much better and my guess is that particularly for the newer universities this will be financially catastrophic.

They absolutely have to find a viable model for university education in this new reality, albeit that the model may be to admit that degrees in their current form will no longer be a viable offering . If this is the case then the funding mechanism will need addressing, just to start.

For this to happen we really need co operation on all sides and an education secretary who is both up to the job intellectually and is also able to advocate for higher education at government level and bring people together.

Clearly this is not what we have at the moment (eyes pictures of Shirley Williams and wonders how we went from that to this )

I don’t think universities want to address it. They have invested millions in accommodation - in fact I see adverts in the paper for investment in student accommodation - and now can’t possibly turn around and say, “Sorry, chaps, it’s all online now.” A university advertises on television (obviously locally sold slots) and mentions nothing about the academic side, only shows shots of frolicking students having the time of their life.

No matter what some staff hope for or what happens next with the pandemic, universities cannot countenance no student presence, and certainly many would go under if all they could offer was an online experience.

@Xenia

Why would large groups be a prblem at all if everyone old and vulnerable has had the jab and are moving on the winter boosters however? Why not just let it fun riot in those who chose not to have a vaccine?

Yes we are on course to vaccinate all over 18s inc even now pregnant women. I hope the situation is very much better in sept and unis can plan optimistically rather than cautiously

As I said, in my faculty it's only 40%. That limits how many extra hours we can put in

My place operates a workload model, calculated on a workload of 1650 hours per annum. It's a point of constant contention that the model doesn't reflect the actual working hours we work, but it operates as a concrete model, partly to ensure parity across colleagues' workloads. Whatevs.

I was just given access to my workload hours for the last 3 years. I am officially calculated to be working between 300 and 400 hours over the 1650 standard hours each year. So probably nearer 500 to 600 extra hours over what I"m paid for. No wonder I'm exhausted.

Why would large groups be a problem at all if everyone old and vulnerable has had the jab and are moving on the winter boosters however

The vaccine doesn't stop people from becoming ill. COVID-19 is a nasty disease which is as much neurological as flu-like. Long COVID is no joke.

The vaccine doesn't stop people from becoming ill. COVID-19 is a nasty disease which is as much neurological as flu-like. Long COVID is no joke.
Lots of other diseases make people ill
but we do not shut universities and the whole world
especially once vaccines are in place

Why do people say that the vaccine doesn't stop people from being ill? It's such an odd myth. It prevents infections altogether in many people.

Sorry haven’t read all the thread so apologies if repeating views. I have a 1st year DD who has hated this year on line. She and all her cohort of friends agree this has not been a good uni experience to date . And as a parent I worry wether the teaching has been up to the standard she needs for her profession (she is doing a vocational degree which leads to qualification) However given the pandemic they have made the best of it . I think the biggest decider factor for wether lectures can take place is when cinemas open . If cinemas are deemed safe I would assume lectures would be as they are technically the same animal for risk purposes . I would be very disappointed to see uni lectures online if cinemas are open as there would be no justification. Obviously the reverse stands too if cinemas are not deemed safe I would not expect lectures to be regarded as safe
I also think a lot of the arguments for online, mature students, overseas students etc are trying to justify a decision which affects only a minority . It looks like most countries will be in green lists by the summer and enforcing a policy for a possible minority of students across a whole student body would surely be madness. It would be more effective to offer the few students who can’t access the UK a deferment.
Ultimately, you can’t please everyone but surely the sensible thing would be to make decisions based on the majority opinion not the minority.

Vice Chancellor of Portsmouth on the radio pointed out that they have lateral flow tested 2000 students a day since January and have not had a positive for ages

Students should go back
on the same basis as 6th forms

@ListeningQuietly

Vice Chancellor of Portsmouth on the radio pointed out that they have lateral flow tested 2000 students a day since January and have not had a positive for ages

Students should go back
on the same basis as 6th forms

That man is a hero - where are all the others?!

@Stirmecrazy

Sorry haven’t read all the thread so apologies if repeating views. I have a 1st year DD who has hated this year on line. She and all her cohort of friends agree this has not been a good uni experience to date . And as a parent I worry wether the teaching has been up to the standard she needs for her profession (she is doing a vocational degree which leads to qualification) However given the pandemic they have made the best of it . I think the biggest decider factor for wether lectures can take place is when cinemas open . If cinemas are deemed safe I would assume lectures would be as they are technically the same animal for risk purposes . I would be very disappointed to see uni lectures online if cinemas are open as there would be no justification. Obviously the reverse stands too if cinemas are not deemed safe I would not expect lectures to be regarded as safe I also think a lot of the arguments for online, mature students, overseas students etc are trying to justify a decision which affects only a minority . It looks like most countries will be in green lists by the summer and enforcing a policy for a possible minority of students across a whole student body would surely be madness. It would be more effective to offer the few students who can’t access the UK a deferment. Ultimately, you can’t please everyone but surely the sensible thing would be to make decisions based on the majority opinion not the minority.

Yes good point about cinemas

Also we can see what other countries are doing - USA unis have been more open than the UK ones for example.

At dd uni apparently the town is heaving and lots of visitors are walking on the beach, shopping etc. Yet it’s the students at fault if a rise occurs 🤷‍♀️

Lots of other diseases make people ill

Very few of them are as highly contagious as COVID-19. I'm optimistic about the vaccine, but cautious. I think we need a bit more evidence about it stopping transmission.

And I am not sanguine about putting my health in the hands of a thoughtless 18 year old, away from home for the first time, and careless of social distancing and health precautions. Our students have been back in practical work since March. But they still have to be chased & reminded to take their regular, twice weekly COVID tests.

@MeltsAway

Lots of other diseases make people ill

Very few of them are as highly contagious as COVID-19. I'm optimistic about the vaccine, but cautious. I think we need a bit more evidence about it stopping transmission.

And I am not sanguine about putting my health in the hands of a thoughtless 18 year old, away from home for the first time, and careless of social distancing and health precautions. Our students have been back in practical work since March. But they still have to be chased & reminded to take their regular, twice weekly COVID tests.

The WHO thinks vaccines cut transmission. The key is getting it in enough people by aug.

@MeltsAway

Lots of other diseases make people ill

Very few of them are as highly contagious as COVID-19. I'm optimistic about the vaccine, but cautious. I think we need a bit more evidence about it stopping transmission.

And I am not sanguine about putting my health in the hands of a thoughtless 18 year old, away from home for the first time, and careless of social distancing and health precautions. Our students have been back in practical work since March. But they still have to be chased & reminded to take their regular, twice weekly COVID tests.

As teaching staff we have to rely on parents not sending their children in and passing it on that way. We hear 'they've just got a cold' an awful lot.

I'm CV and late 40s. I was able to work from home in lockdown 1 and 3 mainly due to my specific role when schools aren't fully open. Otherwise I'd have been in. And I was in September to December with no additional protection, and have been since mid March. No masks, no social distancing just an open window and extra hand washing. Twice weekly testing for staff. I did catch covid and was ill enough to be in hospital. I also have long covid issues and at least one of the complications I will have for life, and will need to take 2 string tablets daily to control it. I can now work ft again though long covid symptoms means I can't do much more beyond work as I'm too shattered when home.

So, I don't in anyway minimise the issues with covid and long covid.

However, covid will be here for years, if not forever. Now we have vaccines we have to learn to live alongside it. If people choose not to be vaccinated then that's their risk, but once everyone else is vaccinated (and even one jab gives a high level of immunity generally) then it's time to get back to normality at the latest.

The vaccines appear to be having a very good reduction on people catching covid, on illness severity if they do catch it and in transmission, so all looks very positive.

Obviously variants are always a concern but out vaccines appear to do well with those to,date,

@MeltsAway

Lots of other diseases make people ill

Very few of them are as highly contagious as COVID-19. I'm optimistic about the vaccine, but cautious. I think we need a bit more evidence about it stopping transmission.

And I am not sanguine about putting my health in the hands of a thoughtless 18 year old, away from home for the first time, and careless of social distancing and health precautions. Our students have been back in practical work since March. But they still have to be chased & reminded to take their regular, twice weekly COVID tests.

Surely that same "thoughtless 18 year old" is a danger to everyone they come into contact with, i.e. in shops, on public transport, in bars, clubs and restaurants, etc. We have to learn to live with Covid as it's going to be with us for years and people can't keep hiding behind their sofas trying to avoid people if they expect to keep their jobs.

@Stirmecrazy

Sorry haven’t read all the thread so apologies if repeating views. I have a 1st year DD who has hated this year on line. She and all her cohort of friends agree this has not been a good uni experience to date . And as a parent I worry wether the teaching has been up to the standard she needs for her profession (she is doing a vocational degree which leads to qualification) However given the pandemic they have made the best of it . I think the biggest decider factor for wether lectures can take place is when cinemas open . If cinemas are deemed safe I would assume lectures would be as they are technically the same animal for risk purposes . I would be very disappointed to see uni lectures online if cinemas are open as there would be no justification. Obviously the reverse stands too if cinemas are not deemed safe I would not expect lectures to be regarded as safe I also think a lot of the arguments for online, mature students, overseas students etc are trying to justify a decision which affects only a minority . It looks like most countries will be in green lists by the summer and enforcing a policy for a possible minority of students across a whole student body would surely be madness. It would be more effective to offer the few students who can’t access the UK a deferment. Ultimately, you can’t please everyone but surely the sensible thing would be to make decisions based on the majority opinion not the minority.

I think the cinema comparison is fair but the difference is that if another wave comes along, you can just shut the cinema completely for months. Universities don't have that option, they have to keep teaching in some way. These are institutions with tens of thousands of students and staff, it's difficult to stop on a dime and change course.

So universities will try to get back to normal as much as possible but they have to make contingency plans as well. Keeping a small amount of things online is a hedge.

@dreamingbohemian but surely the contingency plan for another wave is there now and has been in place for the last year or so. I am confused why universities which have traditionally taught face to face are so reluctant to revert to it even in the face of ‘normal conditions’ in case there is the risk that they may have to switch back online . They adapted pretty quickly in March 2020 and have had a year to fine tune these provisions so I see this as a weak argument.
If we all adopted this outlook nothing would move forward. I am guessing universities will not be reluctant to encourage students to halls of residence this year in case of another wave. Maybe if they did I would have more sympathy for this argument but I am guessing we will have the same university spin and promise to boost the financial coffers before the poor students are hung out to dry.

The cinemas point is interesting, but I'd been assuming when they do open they won't be at capacity but seating will be socially distant. If that's the case, then the same would be presumably true of lectures, which would mean only a small proportion of seats could be filled. And unlike a cinema, we couldn't do first come first served and sucks to be you if you didn't book in time, obviously.

If cinemas are open in the way they used to be, fine.