Students full return to campus

[DoNotBringLulu]

This came up on my Facebook feed:

www.theguardian.com/education/2021/apr/13/university-campuses-in-england-will-not-reopen-until-mid-may

If this is true, Boris et al have some explaining to do.

From June 21st the roadmap states all restrictions will be lifted, therefore from September everything should be back as normal at Universities. That should be the planning - for everything. No excuses if the rest of the country is as normal. Lectures should not be on line as there will be no reason they can not be in person.
As it has been stated the Unis have strictly been following Government guidelines then they should be following this one too.
There do seem to be a lot of excuses as to why not and not to why we can.
Campuses are massive and have been completely empty. No attempts at all to even meet students in person. From Monday a tutor could meet 5 people for a coffee in a park - why aren't they ? Surely they want to meet their students and build a relationship with them ?

[quote TheMerrickBoy]@user1497207191 - we did that all through the Autumn, we just weren't allowed to do it this term because of the national lockdown.[/quote]
Just shows how different Unis are approaching the same set of Governmental "rules", yet the ones who gave up on F2F last year still try to blame the same rules that other Unis are managing to comply with whilst still providing F2F in a limited way. The Unis who gave up at the first hurdle need taking to task.

Didn't mean excuses from people on here ! Wanted to make that clear. But resistance from Uni planners.

How about actually providing some F2F socially distanced teaching??

I did until the government told us all to move online in December.
In all honesty, it wasn't great though. It's not a brilliant experience when you're all sat on individual desks, wearing masks and unable to do group work. Plus students weren't allowed to congregate anywhere on campus so it all felt a bit souless tbh.

@dreamingbohemian

I understand saying universities should push back against the government, and many do, but there's only so much they can do when they are so dependent on the government for funding, when the government is constantly putting in new regs on them and can impose massive fines for breaches.

It's like if you have an unreasonable boss, people will say to push back but you have to tread carefully don't you.

Yes understood. And am sure many uni professionals like the vice chancellor at Portsmouth are speaking up for students. Others really aren’t for we can only assume political reasons. It’s so varied.

@user1497207191 neither of mine got any f2f meetings first term. Nor did any of their friends at many different Unis. Wish they'd had @TheMerrickBoy instead !

@DelBocaVista 😂😂😂😂 welcome to my world. We make it work !

@mumsneedwine And when my DD had to isolate as her flatmate tested positive the wonderful staff at Bristol fed them and checked they were ok daily.

Again shows the different ways in which Unis have dealt with Covid. At my son's uni, when one of his flatmates tested positive, all they did was deliver a pack of loo rolls, no food, no support calls, nothing else at all. The Uni offered an £18 per day food parcel (which they'd have to pay for) and a website list of firms who did deliveries!

From June 21st the roadmap states all restrictions will be lifted, therefore from September everything should be back as normal at Universities. That should be the planning - for everything. No excuses if the rest of the country is as normal. Lectures should not be on line as there will be no reason they can not be in person.

Stop assuming we aren't factoring this in to our planning. We absolutely are!!

As it has been stated the Unis have strictly been following Government guidelines then they should be following this one too.
There do seem to be a lot of excuses as to why not and not to why we can.

No, we are planning for all scenarios. It's creating a lot of additional work.

Campuses are massive and have been completely empty. No attempts at all to even meet students in person. From Monday a tutor could meet 5 people for a coffee in a park - why aren't they ? Surely they want to meet their students and build a relationship with them ?

Not all campuses are massive or have open space to do this. I do want to meet my students in person but I have nearly 100 across my courses - how on earth do I manage that?? while also teaching, marking, planning for next year, carrying out my research and taking any annual leave?

[quote mumsneedwine]@DelBocaVista 😂😂😂😂 welcome to my world. We make it work ![/quote]
and I made it work but I know my online sessions were far more interactive and enjoyable for all involved.

@DelBocaVista I did say it wasn't aimed at staff on here 🤢. I get it's all horrible and it's good to know planning for normal is happening. I mentioned it because others keep saying lectures will still be on line next year so I assumed this was due to following some rules that I don't know about.
And I assumed that you have a set time to meet your tutees - my DDs both have set meetings each term as a group. And in fact one tutor has done exactly what I said (was why I said it) and arranged to meet her tutees in groups of 5 over a day. There is a gazebo if it rains.
I apologise if it's a small campus - I've never been to a Uni that doesn't have space so sorry. I've been to a few over the years and most look like lovely places to work.

@DelBocaVista but you can make it enjoyable and interactive with masks. When you did it people were less used to wearing them and it was strange. Now it's normal and so everyone copes much better. I have 11 year olds who join in and have discussions wearing masks. My 6th formers forget they have them on. Things have changed since last year and now students want to be with other students to learn - not stuck in a bedroom.

Campuses have been empty because there are no classes! You can't bring everyone back and have social distancing at the same time, there is not the room. Even in normal times, finding space for every module is a nightmare.

You can only bring some classes back for f2f so you have to prioritise. Universities are rightly giving preference to any practical course, where students really need f2f. But after that, who do you give preference to? Are law students more important than literature students? Does the econ department get to come back because their head is chums with whoever decides these things?

When schools went into lockdown, a lot of parents said, why can't you keep the schools open and just distance the kids? And teachers said, don't be stupid, we don't have the space. Well universities don't have the space either. So as long as social distancing is the rule, you can't be 100% back to normal.

Hopefully social distancing will end this summer, but if there is another wave it will surely be brought back and then universities will be caught out. That's why our plan is to move large lectures online, that opens up enough space so that all smaller classes can be f2f all year even if we have to go back to distancing.

Large lectures are not as popular today anyway thanks to lecture capture, in some departments only 10% of students show up and the rest watch it online anyway. And to be clear, if you take a large lecture class you also have a small seminar class, and those will definitely be f2f next year. So everyone will have f2f for all or most of their classes.

My suspicion - but it is just that - is that lectures might still be online but everythingn else on campus in september. The reasons I think that might be the case are -

• even students who have been most vocal about wanting to be on campus tend to say they like recorded lectures, which we do in three or four parts, and which they can pause and make notes on

• it's not just the lecture theatre that's an issue: queues of a hundred or so students used, pre-Covid, to wait in the corridor before the start of a lecture, then have to move to the side while the hundred or so that had been in the lecture theatre just before came out, and I think they might want to hold off on quite that much cramming in the first term at least.

I don't know - and I know we're all hoping that pretty much everything will be normal in September - but I think if anything takes longer it'll be that. But I think seminars and tutorials will be on campus.

I really really hope we don't have to SD in seminars - I've spent years trying to get them to speak to each other, not sit in rows, make it clear that a seminar isn't tutor at the front delivering to the ranks, but I do worry that rooms will never go back to the old set up. But as with everything, who knows right now.

And I assumed that you have a set time to meet your tutees - my DDs both have set meetings each term as a group. And in fact one tutor has done exactly what I said (was why I said it) and arranged to meet her tutees in groups of 5 over a day. There is a gazebo if it rains.

I wonder how that would work if all staff wanted to do that? We have 35k students!
I do meet my students - but we've actually done the group and individual tutorials online for years as I have a lot of commuter students so it works best for them that way.
My students are pretty much only taught by me anyway so we get to know each other quite well and this year has been no exception!

I apologise if it's a small campus - I've never been to a Uni that doesn't have space so sorry. I've been to a few over the years and most look like lovely places to work.
City centre and non-campus universities tend not to have lots of open space that's owned by the university.

[quote mumsneedwine]@DelBocaVista but you can make it enjoyable and interactive with masks. When you did it people were less used to wearing them and it was strange. Now it's normal and so everyone copes much better. I have 11 year olds who join in and have discussions wearing masks. My 6th formers forget they have them on. Things have changed since last year and now students want to be with other students to learn - not stuck in a bedroom.
[/quote]
I know how to do my job and what works best for my subject thanks.....

@dreamingbohemian actually teachers did say that had the space to keep schools open. We wanted rotas do some in every day. Would have worked fine. But the government said we weren't allowed (no idea why not as the rest of the world did it).
So it would have been possible !

[quote mumsneedwine]@TheMerrickBoy Reading festival is going ahead. And the roadmap from Boris sats everything open and back to normal from June 21st. So why can Unis not be open and say it will back as normal in Sept, 3 months later.
I get it's scary, I do it every day, but it's possible and for your kids we need to do it. I do, I'm 53 and have a heart condition, but I know it's best for the students do I shove my big girl pants on and get on with my job,[/quote]
Well hopefully it'll all be ok, but as you yourself said, BARRING ANY NEE VARIANTS.

Everyone wants in person teaching at universities to go ahead. Everyone wants schools to remain open in September. Everyone with a ticket wants Reading to go ahead.

But no one can make any categoric guarantees any of those things will happen with absolute certainty.

That's all. There's no shirking of responsibility here. Simply an acknowledgement that there is a small possibility that things may not be able to be normal. And hence we sadly cannot guarantee anything. Any more than the organisers of Reading can guarantee with absolute certainty it'll go ahead.

@DelBocaVista wasn't meaning to insinuate that at all ! I was trying to say that things have changed since the autumn with regards to masks. At first they felt restrictive and it was hard to communicate, but now it's a requirement we have all got used to them and we forget they are there.
Mine is on from 8.15 - 3 every day, with a break for lunch (which I eat in my car as no where else to go). My eldest DD tells me to stop moaning though as she wore full PPE for 13 hours working in ICU last year. So I shut up around her.
It's not perfect but think you'd be pleasantly surprised how much better the students would be now, I have been.
However Bunsen burners and flammable masks has aged me considerably this term.

Can I just say I wish all the lecturers on here were in charge of getting Unis back 😊. Wish the UCU would shut up and go away as they are causing so much anxiety amongst the students about next year, when it sounds like plans are in place for normal.
Let's all keep 🤞🤞🤞🤞
Off to write year 13s next assessment. It's been a pleasure as always go debate.

[quote mumsneedwine]@DelBocaVista wasn't meaning to insinuate that at all ! I was trying to say that things have changed since the autumn with regards to masks. At first they felt restrictive and it was hard to communicate, but now it's a requirement we have all got used to them and we forget they are there.
Mine is on from 8.15 - 3 every day, with a break for lunch (which I eat in my car as no where else to go). My eldest DD tells me to stop moaning though as she wore full PPE for 13 hours working in ICU last year. So I shut up around her.
It's not perfect but think you'd be pleasantly surprised how much better the students would be now, I have been.
However Bunsen burners and flammable masks has aged me considerably this term.[/quote]
I understand what you're saying but for my subject and specifically one module, socially distanced teaching with masks does not work. As a professional sector we agreed that to teach that module online while masks needed to be worn and while students had to be 1m/2m apart.
It genuinely works better online for a number of reasons.

And am sure many uni professionals like the vice chancellor at Portsmouth are speaking up for students.

While making many academic staff redundant and decimating departments. He announced that in the English Department, for example, there were "too many staff." I don't think that is an action which speaks up for students - sacking the staff who teach them.

[quote mumsneedwine]@dreamingbohemian actually teachers did say that had the space to keep schools open. We wanted rotas do some in every day. Would have worked fine. But the government said we weren't allowed (no idea why not as the rest of the world did it).
So it would have been possible ![/quote]
Okay but that's saying you would have the space if you went to a rota system, i.e. everyone going part-time. Universities are already on a rota system as far as space -- every classroom gets used over and over throughout the day by different classes. How do cut those space needs in half without cancelling classes or shortening them so much you can't cover all the material?

Interesting thread. Students will have been vaccinated by Sep so I also can’t see an obvious reason why f2f lectures etc won’t be back. Theatres/ cinemas etc will be.
My daughter starts in September at a London uni but she’ll be delaying if the year is going to be anything like the rubbish year her two 1st year cousins have had.
I know a fair few uni students and none like on line learning. They all say they hate it.
It’s been a pretty miserable year 13 experience for my daughter too but they are back at school now mixing as normal and no case spike. Teachers are just getting on with it, doing their lateral flow tests like loads of other sectors.

Campuses are massive and have been completely empty. No attempts at all to even meet students in person. From Monday a tutor could meet 5 people for a coffee in a park - why aren't they

Because it is still the Easter vacation? It's cold/raining/snowing outside?