Students full return to campus

[DoNotBringLulu]

This came up on my Facebook feed:

www.theguardian.com/education/2021/apr/13/university-campuses-in-england-will-not-reopen-until-mid-may

If this is true, Boris et al have some explaining to do.

Just to reinforce that the vast majority of staff DO want to go back. I want to go back! It's just not that simple.

I have no time for UCU either.

Because it is still the Easter vacation? It's cold/raining/snowing outside?

DD's Easter break finishes officially this coming Monday.
And she is back at university (virtual anyway) with conference type sessions all week this week.

It's not been raining here this week, or where Dd is.
It did the week before and we had snow. So yes, very cold then. Much nicer this week.

Surely there must be ways to work around this prolonged return.

To be honest Dd and her friends have written this academic year off now regards f2f. None have had even a semblance of proper f2f all academic year, despite their friends still in school (year 14 and Fe colleges) all being back in from September to December, and since March this year.

I'm just glad Dd didn't end up in halls in the end. It looked like her private accommodation was going to be a disaster in the first few weeks but fortunately things turned around socially for her so she has managed to make friends with a flat she bubbled with. She knows no one from her actual course though, bar to say hello to on the online tutorials. None she'd be able to tell you much about. Her 'home' friends in halls have had an even worse time as socially they've been even more restricted.

I don't really understand why there isn't more anger about this, in the same way there was with schools when they were closing to all but vulnerable/key worker in the winter.

Again, I don't blame individual lecturers, just like I didn't lay blame on teaching staff in schools.

But I do blame the government and those in charge who are delaying this return to a point when most courses have finished, and who have done nothing really to support the education of students forking out a ton of money for in person courses and accommodation this year. Students have been treated dreadfully when you look back.

Why aren't they

So if I email all the students on the modules I teach and invite them, in groups of 5, to meet me for a coffee in the park, is that for teaching? Or just to catch up? If it's for for teaching, that means a 90 minute seminar for 20 students becomes 6 hours of coffee in the park - and the fourth group probably get the thin end of the wedge, as I've done the session three times already (coincidentally, that's what happened in Autumn - repeat same seminar all day to small group).

Or is it just to catch up, on the assumption they'd like to see me? In which case where do the meetings of 5 students fit in to the rest of the timetable? Do I meet them and then run home again to get online and teach them?

How do my colleagues who commute organize this? Not everyone lives near the uni.

We are not schools and we have different guidelines so you can't compare the two! Yes that may seem ridiculous but that's not any universities fault. We can't go against what the government and OfS tell us to do or we'll be shut down!

Whilst I realise universities are not schools and have different guidelines I do think it is fair to compare the two and to question why different guidelines regards covid are required.

I don't mean lecturers should go against the guidelines in place. But I question why different guidelines are required, at least for smaller seminars and tutorials. I can understand for lectures with many many people in one room, but not for sessions where there are up to 30 or so.

If sixth formers and those in fe colleges can be back now without SDing, and wearing masks and opening windows then really why can't students in university be?

I think these questions do need asking and the government, the OFS and the unions should be giving answers that actually reflect the difference between a young adult in a school/college and a young adult in a university.

@DelBocaVista

How about actually providing some F2F socially distanced teaching??

I did until the government told us all to move online in December.
In all honesty, it wasn't great though. It's not a brilliant experience when you're all sat on individual desks, wearing masks and unable to do group work. Plus students weren't allowed to congregate anywhere on campus so it all felt a bit souless tbh.

But, from the experience of my Dd and her friends, some f2f was better than nothing. Yes, it's not ideal but it's better surely than everyone sat separately in their own rooms on a computer.

Just had to turn the news off as they are now going on about the Indian variant and that it’s vaccine resistant and spreads very fast. This sounds mad but I am almost starting to feel fatalistic.

But, from the experience of my Dd and her friends, some f2f was better than nothing.
Yes, it's not ideal but it's better surely than everyone sat separately in their own rooms on a computer.

It depends on the subject being taught. For my course, those modules on my course which included practical, interactive elements actually worked far better online.
That's not to say it's the same for all subjects but my professional body actually suggested we continue to teach certain elements online while masks and social distancing are in place.

Unis like Lancaster have done an excellent job throughout this whole mess. Others have done very little. That’s partly what fuels the parental and student frustration.

@Abraxan

We are not schools and we have different guidelines so you can't compare the two! Yes that may seem ridiculous but that's not any universities fault. We can't go against what the government and OfS tell us to do or we'll be shut down!

Whilst I realise universities are not schools and have different guidelines I do think it is fair to compare the two and to question why different guidelines regards covid are required.

I don't mean lecturers should go against the guidelines in place. But I question why different guidelines are required, at least for smaller seminars and tutorials. I can understand for lectures with many many people in one room, but not for sessions where there are up to 30 or so.

If sixth formers and those in fe colleges can be back now without SDing, and wearing masks and opening windows then really why can't students in university be?

I think these questions do need asking and the government, the OFS and the unions should be giving answers that actually reflect the difference between a young adult in a school/college and a young adult in a university.

Universities are not schools. I know some people find that very hard to believe but they are completely different types of institutions.

When schools went into lockdown, a lot of parents said, why can't you keep the schools open and just distance the kids? And teachers said, don't be stupid, we don't have the space. Well universities don't have the space either. So as long as social distancing is the rule, you can't be 100% back to normal.

Every teacher I know agreed that we should have a rota system, rather than an all in/all out scenario. The government refused to even contemplate that idea despite it working fine in some other countries. We couldn't have all in with SDing but could have had all children accessing f2f school for 2 days a week.

For universities it could have been a similar thing put in place.
Large lecturers done online.
Smaller groups done f2f. Make use of the larger lecture theatres to have more space, or rotas so everyone had a decent amount of f2f each week.

Or they could have decided that the risk with young adults was minimal, as they did with sixth formers and fe colleges. And just went down the twice weekly testing, masks, sanitiser and ventilation route,

@Abraxan

When schools went into lockdown, a lot of parents said, why can't you keep the schools open and just distance the kids? And teachers said, don't be stupid, we don't have the space. Well universities don't have the space either. So as long as social distancing is the rule, you can't be 100% back to normal.

Every teacher I know agreed that we should have a rota system, rather than an all in/all out scenario. The government refused to even contemplate that idea despite it working fine in some other countries. We couldn't have all in with SDing but could have had all children accessing f2f school for 2 days a week.

For universities it could have been a similar thing put in place.
Large lecturers done online.
Smaller groups done f2f. Make use of the larger lecture theatres to have more space, or rotas so everyone had a decent amount of f2f each week.

Or they could have decided that the risk with young adults was minimal, as they did with sixth formers and fe colleges. And just went down the twice weekly testing, masks, sanitiser and ventilation route,

How many universities have you worked in?

It's not been raining here this week, or where Dd is.

Is this a serious suggestion? Do you live in the UK? How can I guarantee that when I arrange to meet my students that it won't be raining? What happens if it is?

How do you think the logistics of tutors meeting their students (all 20,000+ of them) in "the park", in groups of five, every week, is going to work?

For universities it could have been a similar thing put in place.
Large lecturers done online.
Smaller groups done f2f. Make use of the larger lecture theatres to have more space, or rotas so everyone had a decent amount of f2f each week

Literally what we did. As for deciding what the risk with young adults is (and remember not all students are young adults, and no lecturers are) - not for us to decide.

Universities are not schools.

I know universities and schools are not the same.
I know universities and colleges are not the same.

However the age of the students are similar when it comes to sixth forms and colleges and the fact that they have groups of students in classrooms is similar.

Things could have happened better than they did IMO.
I know others may disagree but my experience via Dd and her friends is that students have been let down this year.

If these kids had wanted an online course they would have signed up for one.

However the age of the students are similar when it comes to sixth forms and colleges and the fact that they have groups of students in classrooms is similar.

Not true. The average age of a student on my course is mid 30's and I often have students in their 40's and 50's.

Universities aren't just about 18 year old undergrads. People seem to forget that.

None of the teachers and TAs were particularly young either. In that sense they are the same. Didn't mean that those school and colleges staff weren't all sent back with no social distancing and no masks.

I actually think schools were sent back in the wrong way. It should never had been all in, no protection. It was always going to be an issue, especially for the adults in those schools.

But equally I believe that more should have been done for university students to get them in more.

And whilst I'm pleased that the lecturers on here have done their best and provided a lot of f2f for their students, sadly ime most students didn't get that. Dd was told it would be 60% f2f in September. By October is was a couple of sessions or a week, quickly reducing to all online. For some of her friends they were told it would be blended and have yet to have a f2f session, None have had the amount of f2f that the lecturers on here have done, so sadly it seems a lot of universities haven't performed so well.

@changi

It's not been raining here this week, or where Dd is.

Is this a serious suggestion? Do you live in the UK? How can I guarantee that when I arrange to meet my students that it won't be raining? What happens if it is?

How do you think the logistics of tutors meeting their students (all 20,000+ of them) in "the park", in groups of five, every week, is going to work?

No, not a serious suggestion. Just a response to a different quote previously that it's not be raining and snowing this week.

But outdoor space could have been made use of I guess. I remember many suggestions that schools bought and used open sided marquees 🤷‍♀️

@changi

Campuses are massive and have been completely empty. No attempts at all to even meet students in person. From Monday a tutor could meet 5 people for a coffee in a park - why aren't they

Because it is still the Easter vacation? It's cold/raining/snowing outside?

Some weren't even doing it last October! Hard for staff to meet students when the staff havn't been on campus since last Easter!

@GlencoraP

Just had to turn the news off as they are now going on about the Indian variant and that it’s vaccine resistant and spreads very fast. This sounds mad but I am almost starting to feel fatalistic.

Yes it is a bit weird to see in the news about the surge testing in South London because of the South Africa variant and now the India variant is also here, which may be more resistant to the vaccine -- and then come on here and see people demanding that everything go back to normal, no excuses etc.

I can only say again that the vast majority of university staff desperately want everything to go back to normal but if we plan for that and there's another lockdown, it is the students who will again suffer if we have to do a sudden U-turn. So I know it's annoying that universities are being cautious but everything is still so uncertain.

Universities aren't just about 18 year old undergrads. People seem to forget that.

A previous link showed that about 1 third of students on undergraduate courses are mature students (over 21y) I think it said the average age in the Uk was 26y or 27y.

Maybe different guidelines for different types of degrees, based on risk factors of the students. I don't know.

I'm just cross that the government has not prioritised student's education at all this year. Once they'd got them all signed up and paid in they've just been left.

And again, it's not I did use lecturers on here I'm annoyed with. It's the government and their inability to actually care about the education of students,

@Newgirls

Unis like Lancaster have done an excellent job throughout this whole mess. Others have done very little. That’s partly what fuels the parental and student frustration.

That's a matter of opinion. It was Lancaster who tried charging £18 per day food parcel for isolating students. It was Lancaster's security who'd stop groups of 8 flat mates (i.e. a bubble) from walking around the campus together. It was Lancaster who had to be dragged kicking and screaming due to a rent strike to give some partial refunds for students not allowed to use their campus accommodation. It was Lancaster who provided nothing but a pack of loo rolls to isolating students. There are barely any staff on campus - it's like a ghost town with entire teaching blocks locked for months on end, common rooms locked, etc. The staff car parks have been empty all year yet security staff are still patrolling and ticketing cars parked in them.

@Abraxan

Universities aren't just about 18 year old undergrads. People seem to forget that.

A previous link showed that about 1 third of students on undergraduate courses are mature students (over 21y) I think it said the average age in the Uk was 26y or 27y.

Maybe different guidelines for different types of degrees, based on risk factors of the students. I don't know.

I'm just cross that the government has not prioritised student's education at all this year. Once they'd got them all signed up and paid in they've just been left.

And again, it's not I did use lecturers on here I'm annoyed with. It's the government and their inability to actually care about the education of students,

Not all courses are undergraduate! In my faculty we have far more postgraduate students than undergraduates.

If you're only seeing universities as somewhere that teaches 18 yr old undergrads then some of the decisions might not make sense. However, if you look at everything else we do you can start to see why certain decisions have been made.

That's not excusing poor practice and teaching - which should be complained about.

But outdoor space could have been made use of I guess. I remember many suggestions that schools bought and used open sided marquees 🤷‍♀️

We did buy loads of marquees for the students to use. They were never used. I was on campus teaching twice a week between September and December and I didn't see a single person use them. 🤷🏼‍♀️

Wish the UCU would shut up and go away as they are causing so much anxiety

Totally agree with that!

User - yikes that’s awful! I’d heard they were good with outdoor bars etc. Not so good then!

Marquees went up at my dd uni. No face to face teaching in them and societies were very restricted about what they were allowed to do. It wasn’t really well thought out. We do have more time for sept as it’s April - surely some tutorials etc can happen in them!