Students full return to campus

[DoNotBringLulu]

This came up on my Facebook feed:

www.theguardian.com/education/2021/apr/13/university-campuses-in-england-will-not-reopen-until-mid-may

If this is true, Boris et al have some explaining to do.

And everything @titchy and @DelBocaVista say.

Direct your resentment towards the incompetent government.

@MeltsAway my disgust is very clearly directed towards the government. Teachers have been thrown under the bus this past year (we were teaching right through the autumn term in person with no protection). We have been made out to be work shy layabouts sipping G&T in the garden all year. When I've worked myself into hospital. So I do appreciate what the staff have had to do. And when my DD had to isolate as her flatmate tested positive the wonderful staff at Bristol fed them and checked they were ok daily.
So I place no blame on staff at all. Maybe VCs could have lobbied harder and the UCU could be told to shut up. But the blame for the students not being back now lies firmly at the door of government.
From May 17th it will lie at the doors of the Uni bosses, so I hope they all get the students back asap. 🤞

From May 17th it will lie at the doors of the Uni bosses, so I hope they all get the students back asap. 🤞

It's not as simple as that though. While we have to maintain social distancing it is very difficult to offer our normal timetable. Impossible for some subjects as we just don't have the space or staff.
As far as I'm aware we haven't been told we can do away with any of the safely measures which includes social distancing.

@titchy

Yes the gov is incompetent but we go round in circles with this argument. If fe colleges and schools can teach 18 year olds then unis can plan for solutions too

We are planning for solutions. Online teaching this year has been the solution. Running three lab classes instead of one has been the solution. Posting library books has been the solution. Giving students laptops has been the solution. Creating covid safe study spaces has been the solution. If we end up in a wave 3 lockdown situation this Autumn we'll continue with that. And it'll be awful I agree.

But if the Government says we CANNOT do in person teaching, then no amount of 'but 18 year olds in sixth form are back in the classroom' will change that. We are a highly regulated sector. If we do something the Office for Students or the Gov explicitly says we cannot do we will be closed down.

Sorry not good enough. Unis need to push back and some are - thank heavens.

@MeltsAway

And everything *@titchy and @DelBocaVista* say.

Direct your resentment towards the incompetent government.

We absolutely are. Surely uni professionals also are? Job losses etc should be motivation alone.

@DelBocaVista not sure why social distancing will be needed from Sept and it does not mention it in the guidance. It's not required in schools ? Wear a mask and keep the doors open - it's what I have to do every day. Staff will be vaccinated as will most students so we need to get back to normal. Or when do we ?

Part of the problem in this discussion is that the quality of online teaching varies so much. We are definitely not just chucking up last year's lectures and powerpoints, that is dreadful. If that's all you're getting, you should complain -- to the head of your department and then up the chain of responsibility.

What we've heard from students in our department is that they are reasonably happy with our online teaching (we do live small-group seminars, which helps) but what they miss are the social aspects and they understand there really isn't anything we can do about that.

We are definitely planning for next year. No large group lectures but otherwise planning for f2f to go ahead. But can we promise anything? If there is another wave and another shutdown, what can we do? If the government decides at the last minute they don't want another repeat of last September and suspends f2f, what can we do?

@mumsneedwine

That's fantastic news though as the government have now said f2f and all students allowed back from May12th. So should be all back to normal in September. Excellent. No reasons this can not be sorted.

Unless there's a third wave... This time last year we all thought Autumn 2020 would be fine!

Teachers have been thrown under the bus this past year
@mumsneedwine I totally agree. I think the treatment of teachers has been appalling, and particularly those teaching in secondary schools, where the whole "children don't get ill from COVID" fails to recognise that older teens do, and teachers are adults who can become very ill.

Re May 17th: at my place, anyway, we'll be deep in exams and assessments. The only teaching we'll be doing is postgrads, and that's one to one - I tend to go for a walk with my PhD students, and we walk & talk - it's a nice way to do a supervision.

Students whose courses require labs & practical work had dispensation from April 12th.

But as PP point out, we're still required to be socially distanced, and universities have a duty of care to all in the institution - CEV and vulnerable students and staff.

It'll be interesting to see if levels of infections skyrocket in my provincial county-university town in September/October this year, when undergrads arrive back "as normal." They did last year by about a factor of 10 - and now we're back down to our usual low levels of new infections.

I doubt we'll be "normal" this September; I think people are all going to have to learn to live with a dangerous & highly communicable disease, even with vaccination. And students, like everyone else, are going to have to realise the community networks in which they live, and behave accordingly.

I understand saying universities should push back against the government, and many do, but there's only so much they can do when they are so dependent on the government for funding, when the government is constantly putting in new regs on them and can impose massive fines for breaches.

It's like if you have an unreasonable boss, people will say to push back but you have to tread carefully don't you.

Sorry not good enough. Unis need to push back and some are - thank heavens.

So if the Ofs and the government tell us we have to still socially distance when teaching what do you suggest we do?

Other than lobby the government what practical suggestions do you have? Because believe me we have considered every option but we can't just magic up space, staff or time so some online learning will have to take place.

Resentment should be directed at who is responsible. Govt and the unions and staff pulling every excuse out of the bag, including the assertion that students prefer online at home experience. Nope. One or two maybe with special circumstances such as illness (but then again if they were well they would most probably not opt for this), but I cannot believe that any more than a tiny number of students would choose three years in their bedroom at home rather than attending university.

Sorry but I think it all sounds like reasons not to be back to normal. All CEV and vulnerable people will be fully vaccinated as will everyone over 18 hopefully. So why can't we return to normal - Israel have.
At some point we have to decide to live with this virus and that some people will get ill and die. Like they do with flu and many many other things. We have to return to living not existing.
From September (yes barring variants and new waves) Uni should be normal as the people sitting in the room will have protection against getting seriously ill via vaccines.
We can not ask our young people to live like this any longer that necessary. And the vaccine is making it unnecessary v quickly.

@MeltsAway It'll be interesting to see if levels of infections skyrocket in my provincial county-university town in September/October this year, when undergrads arrive back "as normal.

But that was probably mostly due to students from all corners of the country (and World) coming to live together, often 8-14 sharing small kitchens and bathrooms, in Uni accommodation. That's what happened at my son's Uni. It wasn't F2F teaching that caused covid to spread (as there was barely any), it was the cramped living accommodation. Yet, Uni's are still encouraging students to sign up for Uni accommodation this Autumn but saying little about whether there'll be F2F teaching. Madness!

@mumsneedwine

Sorry but I think it all sounds like reasons not to be back to normal. All CEV and vulnerable people will be fully vaccinated as will everyone over 18 hopefully. So why can't we return to normal - Israel have. At some point we have to decide to live with this virus and that some people will get ill and die. Like they do with flu and many many other things. We have to return to living not existing. From September (yes barring variants and new waves) Uni should be normal as the people sitting in the room will have protection against getting seriously ill via vaccines. We can not ask our young people to live like this any longer that necessary. And the vaccine is making it unnecessary v quickly.

I don't think it's reasons not to be back to normal so much as being aware there are reasons beyond anyone's control that might mean we're not - and when I say 'back to normal' I mean in terms of everything, not just unis. Ie I wouldn't count on being allowed to stand at the bar with no mask in the pub, although I really really hope I will be able to.

Basically I'm saying I think this is a bigger conversation than just about what teaching will look like in universities.

No where in the new guidance does it mention social distancing has to be maintained at all times. I'm squashed into rooms with 32 kids, built for 25, no windows. Why are Uni staff so different ?
And if one more person tells me students like on line learning I will scream. They've put up with it, the lectures might be ok, but they are no substitute for being in person where the students can meet and discuss. Why why why is this not the priority ?

[quote mumsneedwine]@DelBocaVista not sure why social distancing will be needed from Sept and it does not mention it in the guidance. It's not required in schools ? Wear a mask and keep the doors open - it's what I have to do every day. Staff will be vaccinated as will most students so we need to get back to normal. Or when do we ?[/quote]
I hope we won't have to social distance but we haven't been told to stop and the current guidelines say we have to. Any teaching taking place on campus from May will be done with social distancing measures in place. I have a meeting with colleagues on campus in May and we have been told that we must keep the tables 2m apart and wear masks.

We are not schools and we have different guidelines so you can't compare the two! Yes that may seem ridiculous but that's not any universities fault. We can't go against what the government and OfS tell us to do or we'll be shut down!

@DelBocaVista

Sorry not good enough. Unis need to push back and some are - thank heavens.

So if the Ofs and the government tell us we have to still socially distance when teaching what do you suggest we do?

Other than lobby the government what practical suggestions do you have? Because believe me we have considered every option but we can't just magic up space, staff or time so some online learning will have to take place.

How about actually providing some F2F socially distanced teaching??

My son's Maths building has been completely shut & locked & empty all academic year. All staff have been WFH and not set foot on campus since last Easter! That's not even a half hearted feeble attempt at socially distanced teaching - it's just giving up completely.

@TheMerrickBoy Reading festival is going ahead. And the roadmap from Boris sats everything open and back to normal from June 21st. So why can Unis not be open and say it will back as normal in Sept, 3 months later.
I get it's scary, I do it every day, but it's possible and for your kids we need to do it. I do, I'm 53 and have a heart condition, but I know it's best for the students do I shove my big girl pants on and get on with my job,

@MeltsAway - you have not replied to my question as to whether you support the stance of the UCU which is anti the return of students and anti blended learning.

Yeah, what @DelBocaVista said.

We'll do it when we're told we can, I absolutely promise that, @mumsneedwine. When the government says we can, our VC will immediately put that in place, of that I am certain, and even if it means a weekend's notice, that is what will happen.

@user1497207191 - we did that all through the Autumn, we just weren't allowed to do it this term because of the national lockdown.

No where in the new guidance does it mention social distancing has to be maintained at all times. I'm squashed into rooms with 32 kids, built for 25, no windows. Why are Uni staff so different ?

You're wrong, The operational guidelines for higher education (which was updated on 13th April) states that social distancing should still be in place.
I don't know why this is different to schools but it is and I don't know what you want us to do about it.

I am desperate to be back on campus and to be teaching in person - I actually cried yesterday when I was told I can go in and use my office!

@IrmaFayLear

Resentment should be directed at who is responsible. Govt and the unions and staff pulling every excuse out of the bag, including the assertion that students prefer online at home experience. Nope. One or two maybe with special circumstances such as illness (but then again if they were well they would most probably not opt for this), but I cannot believe that any more than a tiny number of students would choose three years in their bedroom at home rather than attending university.

Perfectly put