To think universities should state separate entry criteria for Indies?

[Wacamole]

DD who is on track for 3A*s at A’level, thought she’d give Oxbridge a go after being encouraged by her teachers. All very excited, doing super curriculars etc. Only just been told she doesn’t meet minimum entry criteria that would be expected from an Indy, which is straight 9s. She doesn’t have straight 9s, she has straight 8s (couple of nines), not only that, the course she wanted to apply for at Cambridge doesn’t require Maths at all, but school has advised they won’t even look at her if she doesn’t do Maths AND Further Maths. She is doing neither. Apparently an EPQ is also mandatory even though none of this is mentioned on Cambridge website.

All this second guessing, reading between the lines has been really confusing.
I have no issue with universities asking for higher entry criteria for students from indies for obvious reasons but wish they would be more transparent and state this on their ‘Entry requirements’ same way they state contextual offers?

@mumsneedwine

Did your efforts have the support of the school governing body or was it self driven?

I am just asking because the ambition of the school seems to be linked to that of a the governing body

I was a governor and the role was very much about ensuring the school satisfied its statutory and financial obligations with performance being relegated to OFSTED and huge focus on 5A-C gcses (getting Ds into Cs was debated in fine detail)

It was difficult to bring up high achievement as this wasn't a priority for a nurturing and inclusive school. It was very much seen as divisive.

Your efforts seem brilliant but getting every school engaged to the same extent may be an ask.

To add balance, my DC's comp is absolutely out of the mumsneedswine category.

DD has gone elsewhere for 6th form, to somewhere with much higher 'progress to 6th form' grades (just a bit tired of being 'DS's sister', tbh, and there being some specific issues with her cohort). In this supposedly 'more able' group, in a 'more highly regarded school', she is feted for her unusually high ability and exceptional work ethic, and told 'how well she has done' to get into her new 6th form.

She hasn't really had the heart to say that there are 30-60 kids each year in the comp who also had the grades to move, and that she was (rightly) regarded as nothing out of the ordinary there - top sets, yes, but not 'exceptional' in the way her new school describes her. Yes, she has got an Oxbridge offer - but so have a significant number of her old peers.

@mids2019 I never even thought to mention it the governors at any school 😳. I just set up an after school club and students came. We then widened it to getting in speakers from Unis and then I researched any free stuff we could access. I met some staff from the posh school up the road while driving the minibus (the v slow one 😊😂) for an athletics meet. Got chatting, got invited to their next UCAS day and brought some students. It's snow balled from there.
It makes me sad to hear of schools failing their pupils. Nothing is perfect but things can be better. And they should be for all kids.

@mumsneedwine

Amazing. (Possibly shows the use of some governors)

How this sort of scheme isn't lauded at a governance level I think is quite strange.

It does not seem to cost a lot of money either.

The cynic I'm me just thinks at some schools schemes like yours wouldn't be appreciated as you may have a subgroup of pupils that are looking for that 'push' from the school I.e. teachers to get uni places and this would be counter the teaching focus.

mumsneedwine what you're helping with in your school is exactly what Oxford and Cambridge like to see - but it's not original. It's what all properly led schools should be doing, but too many very obviously aren't. But the decent ones are - in exactly the same way with alumni helping with prep for the aptitude tests and then mock interviews etc etc.
You can't be operating in isolation at your school so presumably the HT (since your posts suggest you're not the HT) is on board and at least in name leading the Oxbridge initiative and allowing you time off for the outreach lunches etc.
It's just that your posts are making it sound a little too much as though this is a new initiative devised by you personally and completely unique. It very much isn't but all credit for what you do - the focus really needs to be on why not all schools follow this well rehearsed pattern - and my own money is on poor quality and lazy leadership with people in charge who really shouldn't be - but then there's been a national HT shortage; almost no-one has been wanting the jobs.

The other possibility is that your school is also poorly led mumsneedwine, the HT hasn't a clue about Oxbridge access, and that you've trail blazed without realizing that this is the blue print everywhere else. In which case double credit to you and nil points to your HT.

@mids2019 it costs school nothing as we all give our time for free, speakers are free and trips are funded by the Unis. Only cost is cover when I need a day out but I always try and timetable on my year 12/13 heavy days, as do my colleagues.
It takes staff having the time to do it though. And that means having enough staff to do the basics - I've been lucky and always had support but means I have to be ultra organised. Think my past in HR comes in handy here, and not having small children at home.

In fact triple credit for getting time off for the lunches if the HT doesn't give two hoots!

@goodbyestranger fantastic leadership, leaves teachers to get on with the job. Nothing original (as I've said, I've nicked most of the ideas). I know loads of schools do the same and lots do it much better.
Not sure why you think that I've said any of that stuff ? Our caretaker has put go faster stripes on 'my' minibus as I told him I drive it too slowly apparently. He hasn't fixed the leaky windscreen though.

@goodbyestranger

I think part of the problem is metrics used in school management. There is very much a focus in getting 5 A-C gcses (or the modern equivalent) and maintaining OFSTED ratings. These discussions dominate governance meetings and it how the HT is held accountable. There are a huge number of other priorities for schools.

The concept of UCAS groups, high achieving groups etc can be quite alien in some schools

@mids2019 exactly, why I'm not on SLT as hate the politics. If I want to give my time for free then that's my business, as long as my teaching doesn't suffer. Our little group of staff sort it out ourselves, support each other and cover lessons where we can in our PPA time.

@mumneedswine

It's a governing body's role to support the school through adjusting staffing levels etc. They should be supporting this by paying for allocated staff time.

Have you presented at a board meeting?

I would think it would make absolute sense to

@mumneedswine

So politics gets in the way of supporting schemes that potentially have improved the life chances of pupils .....

Talk about woods and trees

my own money is on poor quality and lazy leadership with people in charge who really shouldn't be

I think it does depend on the area as to whether that is fair. A head who is dealing with very high levels of hunger, deprivation, gang violence and hidden homelessness within their cohort, and due to the link between Ofsted grade and socio-economic intake is also fighting to keep their Ofsted grade up through key data metrics, is not necessarily going to have the physical or mental resource to also develop an ambitious programme for university entrance.

mumsneedwine leaving teachers to go off on a frolic of their own is not fantastic leadership. With fantastic leadership, the HT will be fully on board and having some input, given the importance of the frolic, and the governing body will be fully informed and supporting the frolic too. I have to say too that almost by definition the leadership can't be fantastic if the HT is so little concerned is aspiration for his or her students that the whole Oxbridge thing has passed him or her by to such an extent that a Chemistry teacher has only got wind of it by chance at a hockey match with a local school. This isn't really stacking up, to be fair to your HT.

If you're a decent HT you need to have just that resource. If you can't hack it, don't be a HT.

• is with

I mean, I have just been looking at a comprehensive school with 57% FSM and going on for 25% on the SEN register.

I suggest that the head of that school would not be poor quality, lazy or in charge when they shouldn't be if they are not also running a significant Oxbridge-related programme. Yes, that is obviously extremely difficult for a very able child in that school but there are only 24 hours in the day even for the best of headteachers.

I disagree cantkeepawayforever. It's a big job but there should be no excuses.

@goodbyestranger

If you're a decent HT you need to have just that resource. If you can't hack it, don't be a HT.

I do know an exceptional headteacher who attempted exactly that. Took on the worst-performing school in the most deprived catchment of an extremely deprived area. Took students on university visits while simultaneously feeding the majority of their students all year round, with both social services and police permanently on site. Faced significant personal threat, arson, punitive Ofsted regime and a dwindling budget.

Nearly died of a stress-related condition after 3 years. School was closed.

Why should a head in such a place be told they are failing if they do not provide significant Oxbridge-related expertise? Why isn't the head of a school in an affluent area told they are failing for not managing 50%+ on free school meals, or not having 25% SEN? Prioritising what is important for the cohort is a key skill, rather than being penalised for not providing a whole shopping list of things,. some of which are less critical and less relevant? If there has to be a shopping list, why isn't failing to take the national average of pupils requiring FSM, or on the SEN register, regarded as a significant failure in the same way as you are regarding lack of university preparation?

@goodbyestranger

I disagree cantkeepawayforever. It's a big job but there should be no excuses.

In that case, I would say EVERY head of EVERY selective school is failing absolutely, because they neither provide effectively for the national average number of childre with SEN, nor the national or local average of children with FSM.

They are deliberately choosing a job that is smaller than the job done heads in more challenging circumstances, and should be regarded more poorly as a result.

In fact you'll almost certainly find that the HTs of selective schools take every single disadvantaged child(FSM) who attains L5 at primary and applies to the school can'tkeepawayforever.

Hence the outreach work to try to get more and more of those disadvantaged DC a) to attain L5 and b) to apply.

And then of course there's the argument that the very able are in a special educational needs category, ill served by comprehensives - but that argument isn't politically hugely attractive.

@goodbyestranger

In fact you'll almost certainly find that the HTs of selective schools take every single disadvantaged child(FSM) who attains L5 at primary and applies to the school can'tkeepawayforever.

Hence the outreach work to try to get more and more of those disadvantaged DC a) to attain L5 and b) to apply.

You might want to look up when end of primary levels such as L5 was abolished, goodbyestranger...your use of it does make you look remarkably out of touch!

I can only laugh at the rest of your statement, too. I live close enough to a semi-selective county to know full well that it is very far from being every disadvantaged able child who applies to the selective schools who is admitted.

SATs attainment does not feature at all in the selection - only performance in the special 11+ test, which is deliberately divorced from the national curriculum and thus advantages those with schools or parents able to tutor. There is no appeals mechanism, and no admissions criteria, able to admit disadvantaged children based on their performance in SATs or any other national curriculum test.

@cantkeepawayforever ah levels for SATs. Those were the days. 😊