To think universities should state separate entry criteria for Indies?

[Wacamole]

DD who is on track for 3A*s at A’level, thought she’d give Oxbridge a go after being encouraged by her teachers. All very excited, doing super curriculars etc. Only just been told she doesn’t meet minimum entry criteria that would be expected from an Indy, which is straight 9s. She doesn’t have straight 9s, she has straight 8s (couple of nines), not only that, the course she wanted to apply for at Cambridge doesn’t require Maths at all, but school has advised they won’t even look at her if she doesn’t do Maths AND Further Maths. She is doing neither. Apparently an EPQ is also mandatory even though none of this is mentioned on Cambridge website.

All this second guessing, reading between the lines has been really confusing.
I have no issue with universities asking for higher entry criteria for students from indies for obvious reasons but wish they would be more transparent and state this on their ‘Entry requirements’ same way they state contextual offers?

If there's 100 students on a course and 99 have further maths that's a pretty strong suggestion that further maths is something they look for and the 1 is something of an outlier.

It's not though. This is a common mistake - and one I suspect the OP's dd's school is making. Correlation does not equal causation.

It may well be that most applicants to History also have Maths for example. But Maths is the most popular A level, so it's not surprising. But admissions tutors won't care, as long as the applicant has the course specific subject(s) they won't care that the 3rd A level is Maths. As long as kid has History and say one other essay subject.

@ClashCityRocker The site you’re thinking of is Uniguide. Unfortunately, It does not show the breakdown for this particular subject.

The school is talking crap.

You can find statistics in the university admissions reports and FOI requests about the actual GCSE grades that students selected for interview and student who were successful achieved. It might take some digging. You can also find out how they select candidates for interview eg how much weight goes to GCSE grades, how much to selection tests etc

Off the top of my head, I seem to remember when my DC were applying, 7A* was the lowest number of top GCSE grades that a candidate who was admitted achieved but that came with the caveat that the average number was much higher. Could it be that your DD has misunderstood and the advisor was suggesting that her grades indicated that she had a low chance of getting in rather than she didn't meet the requirements?

The maths/FM advice is a bit strange. I can think of courses where maths is preferred but not required at all colleges, ditto maths is required and FM preferred/required at some colleges, but none where neither is required at some colleges but both are preferred or required at other colleges. Certainly, there is no different subject requirement for independent school students. Have you looked at the individual college criteria? Different colleges have different requirements eg some colleges require maths for architecture,others don't. It could be that the advisor meant that there were only a few colleges that would accept her with maths, narrowing down her chances.

Universities are focusing on being more inclusive and open so applying from an independent school is actually proving to be a disadvantage. Less and less offers are being made to students from independents; more offers are being accepted from state schools for oxbridge places.

DS is at Cambridge on a course that doesn't specify A Level Maths as a requirement or a recommendation but a FOI request revealed that actually almost every successful applicant has A Level Maths or equivalent. The published typical offer is AAA but DS doesn't know anyone who didn't have an AA*A offer. It is very important to clarify the typical offer versus actual requirements with the prospective college(s).
Conversely, DD is at Oxford on a course that strongly recommended two sciences and maths (and this was reiterated on an open day) and she has two sciences and English Lit. So again, really important to talk to college tutors and see how flexible they might be.

One of my daughters went to Oxford. Advice from her school (selective independent) was that Oxbridge expected students to outperform the average at their school.

They would be expecting more from applicants applying from a school where the average child achieved all grade 8/9s than they would from those applying from a school where the average was grade 07.

It's not as simple as independent vs state.

The advice about maths sounds like nonsense to me.

Go straight to the uni admissions team. Only listen to them.

Also, admissions require the stated and published grades. Nothing more, nothing less. There are no secret rules where they say they ask for an 8 but really want a 9. I work in Admissions and I'm always intrigued by the rumours that go round about this stuff.

Bluebris’ post mirrors our experience seven years ago, right down to the A levels selected and predictions, though DS was stronger in maths. This year is a lot less predictable, but even back then DS was rejected by UCL, Warwick and Cambridge. One of his classmates was also rejected by LSE but got Cambridge on reapplication.

It’s not about state/indie. Not least kids move to indies for a host of reasons including being unhappy in a state school or living in a catchment with weak state provision, or even not being of the right religion (like My Hindu friend who felt uncomfortable about the idea of CofE.)

Some courses are very competitive with lots more qualified applicants to places

Universities are interested in potential.

To get a place you almost certainly need to offer more than the minimum. The minimum will be there to ensure that talented but disadvantaged kids who would thrive, are not put off from applying.

That said, it is only one line on the UCAS form and she should have a go. EPQ, like other things, will add to the application, but is not essential. Sometimes you get something you don’t expect. You won’t if you don’t apply. And the process of applying contributes to life skills. In a few years time she will be applying for grad jobs. The ones who land them may be lucky but most will be determined and persistent.

Youbdo know you don't have to follow the school's advice?

DS is at Cambridge on a course that doesn't specify A Level Maths as a requirement or a recommendation but a FOI request revealed that actually almost every successful applicant has A Level Maths or equivalent

Again correlation does not equal causation. Maths is the most popular A level so it's not surprising most applicants have it. Doesn't mean it's required.

a) always take schools careers advice with six buckets of Saxa salt, not just a pinch.

b) the more people who apply, the more they have to reject. And more and more people are applying. Dd goes to an ordinary comp. a friend from school was rejected for computer science with all 9s and four predicted A*s. It is a horrendously competitive course with very poor odds of getting in.

DD , selective Indie. Cambridge fresher in History. No EPQ. Got an 8 at GCSE in her degree subject which she actually brought up at her interview!! “ We don’t care about that at all” was the response. Ignore your school, DD offer raised eyebrows as she wasn’t the most “ obvious” applicant and others who seemed more likely missed out but by goodness, the work she put into her application.. good luck to your daughter!

I agree that it isn't as simple as independent vs state. A child from a disadvantaged background in an underperforming school who achieves a string of straight 8s may be truly exceptional. A child with the same exceptional ability from a comfortable background in an average state comprehensive might reasonably be expected to do significantly better. And perhaps better again for a child from a wealthy, supportive background attending a high performing school, whether that school is state or private. Context is all!

If your dd is keen, OP, she should definitely apply. Cambridge interviews most candidates regardless of their GCSE grades, so she certainly has a shot. She won't know unless she tries.

It's harder to comment on whether the lack of maths will be important or not, as we don't know the subject. I'd follow the advice given by the university, though, and perhaps make some enquiries of individual colleges as to whether she will be at a disadvantage without it.

DD is waiting for a reply fromCambridge. To those who asked about checking the college, non of the colleges require any specific subjects.

@littlewhitestar It’s both, school advisor felt DD had a very low chance of anything because she didn’t meet the minimum which is 7 9s.
@ofteninaspin At the risk of sharing too much info, your ds’s course sounds like the same one DD is interested. Same A’level entry criteria and although Maths wouldn’t hurt but not required but as others have said it’s a popular subject.

Reading everyone’s comments thank you.

Presumably it is HSPS or Linguistics ? If so it is worth looking at the different colleges websites , from memory some do say they prefer maths others do not

Good luck to your dd, OP!

Thank you @AlexaShutUp. If not Cambridge there are plenty other good universities. I’d just like to get to the bottom of this conundrum for peace of mind.

If not Cambridge there are plenty other good universities.

Yes, absolutely. I studied in Cambridge and my dd aspires to do the same. I'm happy to encourage this but have always emphasised that there are plenty of other great options out there if it doesn't work out!

The epq thing is well known, dd was told epq or 4 a levels for oxbridge. It's subject specific for choice of a levels but for physics and engineering further maths is usually required. My DD's friend had 3 a levels at a* (achieved no predicted) and was turned down because no fm and no epq

Dd got 3A*, 5A and 3B at GCSE
She got 3 x A* at A''Level (admittedly dropping v few UMS points across the board)
Applied to Cambridge during gap year and received an unconditional offer.

Indie ranking high up the league tables and they were 110% supportive.

Also offers from: Durham, Warwick, KCL and Bristol.

Hums though.

@RosesAndHellebores A*s + exams...those were the good old days!

I told my dcs if they want to attend put in the application. Even if you get rejected at least you won't always wonder what if. Would be different if course if there wasn't any other excellent places to also apply to.

@Wacamole - your DD should put in an application. DD is applying this year for Oxford from an independent for medicine. I'm under no illusions that it is a punt and she has 10 9s under her belt. But if you don't apply there is zero chance of an offer.

I will, however, counsel her to pick her other choices very carefully to avoid the risk of no offers. When DS1 applied to Oxford he was advised by school to make sure he had a couple of safer bets in addition to Oxford, Durham and Imperial.